Redevelopment- a Foregone Conclusion?

[cliffc]

There's no significant day tripper market in Margate??! Really?

The vast majority of visitors to the Grotto are not from Thanet. Around half of our visitors are not even from Kent. They are day trippers, people on short breaks and families on longer holidays - we do still get holidaymakers here for a week or fortnight, although nobody is claiming they are our main market any more.

So the market has definitely changed but there most certainly is still a market in Margate and it's significant enough to keep this tourist attraction in business. The Grotto survives - nay thrives - because it is a well-run attraction with a committed owner who invests in it and its marketing (sorry to be so immodest, hate blowing my own trumpet but I do believe that we are living proof it can be done in Margate). And much as I love the Grotto, it really can't compete with Dreamland in terms of pulling power.

If I can turn this place around - and I came here with no experience of running a tourism business and just about enough cash to redecorate and buy some wine for the opening party - imagine what somone like Philip could do in Dreamland.

There are many, many reasons why Dreamland hasn't worked as well as it could in recent years. There isn't a single reason why it couldn't be successful in the future. THAT is the simple harsh economic reality.

Sarah

Hi Sarah

I agree with every thing Sarah has written above with one thing there is only one reason why Dreamland has not worked well in recent years and that is Jimmy Godden, he has had no will to make it work as he did not want it to, because he has allways had another adgenda for the site, until we get rid of Godden out of the way and a committed owner who ever that may be then we shall see that Dreamland can and will be once again a 1st class attraction that will pay its own way and attract more visitors to margate and the county of Kent as well.

CLiff C

[Dave H.]

Hi Guys,I've always had an admiration for the determination of the Campaign to save Dreamland and have shown and will continue to support the Campaign where and when possible.I've also read "Bobs" posts with interest and smile when feathers get ruffled.However,I now speak as someone who gets a major part of his annual income from the operation of Seasonal Equipment and concessions.We have to face facts that the Seaside has been in decline for many years,this being the reason that I now also do other things to earn a living.Parks across the Country have closed down,Spanish Cityand Frontierland,to name just 2.These are difficult times and I admire Phillip Miller for what he's done at Southend,another Park that go's from strength to strength is Funland at Hayling Island.Whilst we would all wish to see Dreamland back as it was in "the glory days",the chances of this ever happening are very low,with the way things are at present.There are so many other ways for families to spend their leisure time nowadays,the increase in "Farm Parks" who all seem to have a range of fairground equipment on offer as well as animals.With expenses the way they are,Rent,Insurances,Wages etc,it makes it difficult to run even the smallest concession at a reasonable return for the effort put in.

What I'd like ask members of the forum,especially those who dont work in the Leisure industry is,what do YOU think would make Dreamland viable as an attraction again? Give your answers serious consideration and try to think of attractions that can be open 52 weeks of the year.I'll await your replies.All the best,Dave.

P.S. I've always been an eternal optimist,but sometimes even I have to face reality and change the way I do and see things.

[Bob]

There's no significant day tripper market in Margate??! Really?

The vast majority of visitors to the Grotto are not from Thanet. Around half of our visitors are not even from Kent. They are day trippers, people on short breaks and families on longer holidays - we do still get holidaymakers here for a week or fortnight, although nobody is claiming they are our main market any more.

So the market has definitely changed but there most certainly is still a market in Margate and it's significant enough to keep this tourist attraction in business. The Grotto survives - nay thrives - because it is a well-run attraction with a committed owner who invests in it and its marketing (sorry to be so immodest, hate blowing my own trumpet but I do believe that we are living proof it can be done in Margate). And much as I love the Grotto, it really can't compete with Dreamland in terms of pulling power.

If I can turn this place around - and I came here with no experience of running a tourism business and just about enough cash to redecorate and buy some wine for the opening party - imagine what somone like Philip could do in Dreamland.

There are many, many reasons why Dreamland hasn't worked as well as it could in recent years. There isn't a single reason why it couldn't be successful in the future. THAT is the simple harsh economic reality.

Sarah

Hi Sarah

I agree with every thing Sarah has written above with one thing there is only one reason why Dreamland has not worked well in recent years and that is Jimmy Godden, he has had no will to make it work as he did not want it to, because he has allways had another adgenda for the site, until we get rid of Godden out of the way and a committed owner who ever that may be then we shall see that Dreamland can and will be once again a 1st class attraction that will pay its own way and attract more visitors to margate and the county of Kent as well.

CLiff C

You cannot really compare the Shell Grotto business with that of Dreamland. The Shell Groto will have low fixed obverheads, low staff costs and almost zero capital costs.

Dreamland needs major capital investment. You are talking a multi million pound figure. Staff costs are high you cannot run an Amusement park with one or two people you need hundreds. The cost of rides is high you are talking hundreds of thousands of ppound per ride. Maintainance costs are high. Independent safety checks have to be carried out annually. Insurance costs are high. The business rates for the site are high. You are looking at needing a turnover of at least £25,000,000 a year just to break even. Thats not very likely with a season of under a 100 days. It would need about 25,000 people a day through the gates and spending £10 minimum each. There is no way you would get those numbers

The Shell Groto although I dont know its exact costs I would suspect could make money with under 50 people a day. Its a totally different business

[Nick]

Dreamland needs major capital investment. You are talking a multi million pound figure. Staff costs are high you cannot run an Amusement park with one or two people you need hundreds. The cost of rides is high you are talking hundreds of thousands of ppound per ride. Maintainance costs are high. Independent safety checks have to be carried out annually. Insurance costs are high. The business rates for the site are high. You are looking at needing a turnover of at least £25,000,000 a year just to break even. Thats not very likely with a season of under a 100 days. It would need about 25,000 people a day through the gates and spending £10 minimum each. There is no way you would get those numbers

I am sorry, but that is absolute rubbish. Pay a visit to Companies House and download the accounts of other seaside amusement parks. There is only really Blackpool Pleasure Beach that makes more than £25m a year (it takes in about £36m). Most seaside parks (including Southend and Great Yarmouth) have a turnover of less than £10m a year. You will see from the accounts that, even with all the overheads, most of these parks make a good profit, certainly enough to make it worthwhile.

In fact, very few inland theme parks have turnovers greater than £10m. Most make between £3m and £8m. Where on Earth did you pull the £25m turnover from?? Tussauds would be very pleased to make that at one of their parks!

I am now wondering whether you really are connected with the Dreamland business, because your figures are so far removed from reality.

Nick

[cliffc]

Hi Guys,I've always had an admiration for the determination of the Campaign to save Dreamland and have shown and will continue to support the Campaign where and when possible.I've also read "Bobs" posts with interest and smile when feathers get ruffled.However,I now speak as someone who gets a major part of his annual income from the operation of Seasonal Equipment and concessions.We have to face facts that the Seaside has been in decline for many years,this being the reason that I now also do other things to earn a living.Parks across the Country have closed down,Spanish Cityand Frontierland,to name just 2.These are difficult times and I admire Phillip Miller for what he's done at Southend,another Park that go's from strength to strength is Funland at Hayling Island.Whilst we would all wish to see Dreamland back as it was in "the glory days",the chances of this ever happening are very low,with the way things are at present.There are so many other ways for families to spend their leisure time nowadays,the increase in "Farm Parks" who all seem to have a range of fairground equipment on offer as well as animals.With expenses the way they are,Rent,Insurances,Wages etc,it makes it difficult to run even the smallest concession at a reasonable return for the effort put in.

What I'd like ask members of the forum,especially those who dont work in the Leisure industry is,what do YOU think would make Dreamland viable as an attraction again? Give your answers serious consideration and try to think of attractions that can be open 52 weeks of the year.I'll await your replies.All the best,Dave.

P.S. I've always been an eternal optimist,but sometimes even I have to face reality and change the way I do and see things.

Hi Dave H

Spanish City only closed because the council in Whitly Bay have cleared every body off the site due to redevelopement, this has not happend so now we have a run down site and a decimated sea front, I think that Spanish City could have carryed on and made money with no problems but if your under threat of eveiction your not going to put the effort in to run the site. But now it has gone the visitor numbers have dropped many fold and all that is left on the sea front is 2 amusment arcades and a fish and chip shop and some pubs that attract a stag and hen trade, and the shops in the main part of town are closeing down, a lot of the seaside trade is now moving to South Sheilds where there amusement park still operates very successfully, by having a mix of static attractions and travling rides, this seems to work for oceian Beach. This means that parks can still make cash and survive in even a small seaside place like South Sheilds, I take the kids down there many times in the summer, thay have promotions with 1/2 price nights ect.

CLiff C

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

The hotel-stay holiday trade had long disappeared when the Bembom Brothers took over the park in 1981, and at the time Dreamland was run-down and neglected. Within a few years of careful and caring management, visitor figures were up to almost two million per year.

There is absolutely no reason why a similar figure could not be achieved today.

The whole of Margate will be dragged down if Dreamland is redeveloped as a site which simply dilutes the local spend or is used as housing. This is already happening, as anyone who lives locally can testify.

If the current owners do not wish to operate an amusement park then the site should be subject to a Compulsary Purchase Order and leased long-term or sold to someone who is prepared to operate it as an amusement park.

[Bob]

Dreamland needs major capital investment. You are talking a multi million pound figure. Staff costs are high you cannot run an Amusement park with one or two people you need hundreds. The cost of rides is high you are talking hundreds of thousands of ppound per ride. Maintainance costs are high. Independent safety checks have to be carried out annually. Insurance costs are high. The business rates for the site are high. You are looking at needing a turnover of at least £25,000,000 a year just to break even. Thats not very likely with a season of under a 100 days. It would need about 25,000 people a day through the gates and spending £10 minimum each. There is no way you would get those numbers

I am sorry, but that is absolute rubbish. Pay a visit to Companies House and download the accounts of other seaside amusement parks. There is only really Blackpool Pleasure Beach that makes more than £25m a year (it takes in about £36m). Most seaside parks (including Southend and Great Yarmouth) have a turnover of less than £10m a year. You will see from the accounts that, even with all the overheads, most of these parks make a good profit, certainly enough to make it worthwhile.

In fact, very few inland theme parks have turnovers greater than £10m. Most make between £3m and £8m. Where on Earth did you pull the £25m turnover from?? Tussauds would be very pleased to make that at one of their parks!

I am now wondering whether you really are connected with the Dreamland business, because your figures are so far removed from reality.

Nick

Dreamland needs massive investment that investment needs to be recovered and that’s on top of the day to day running costs. The fact that Theme parks have low turnovers is where the problem lies. These sound big figures but are not with the costs involved and the ongoing capital investment needed. To put it into perspective your local corner shop needs to turnover at least £150K a year just to survive.

Dreamland is also not a Theme Park. It’s too small to be a Theme Park and its cost base is in any case too high. It’s also too large to be an Amusement Park for todays needs hence the need to downsize it...
The Tusauds Group gets over 3,000,000 visitors a year to its Theme Parks. Remember as well they have diversified they are not just Them Parks. The have exhibition halls and Hotels & shops on their sites. Each visitor to their sites will spend in the region of £50 to £100. They will think nothing of Investing £5,000,000 in a single ride.

Dreamland cannot compete in that market. Its only route to survive is to downsize, reduce the cost base and diversify away from begining just a seaside amusement park. So Dreamland will end up smaller and more compact but with more rides. The focus will not be on the expensive high thrill type rides but will be aimed at the under 10 market with lots of smaller childrens rides and play areas etc

[David Ellis]

So what is the smallest size a Theme Park can be...or the largest size an Amusement Park can be? The simple truth is that there are no such parameters!

As for just catering to the under-10 market, this is very unlikely to succeed...families should have something there for all of them, not just the children! Otherwise there would be no reason for people to travel hundreds of miles to visit. Sure, you would get the "beach" trade, but you would need to have a mix of rides to get visitors from outside the immediate area.

Perhaps you realise this, and are suggesting the guaranteed way forward to have the park closed for good, thus being available for redevelopment.

Look at what Oakwood Park have done from a mere farm...or what Adventure Island have done in a similar market. Success is possible for Dreamland as an Amusement Park, catering for young and old alike.

David.

[Bob]

So what is the smallest size a Theme Park can be...or the largest size an Amusement Park can be? The simple truth is that there are no such parameters!

As for just catering to the under-10 market, this is very unlikely to succeed...families should have something there for all of them, not just the children! Otherwise there would be no reason for people to travel hundreds of miles to visit. Sure, you would get the "beach" trade, but you would need to have a mix of rides to get visitors from outside the immediate area.

Perhaps you realise this, and are suggesting the guaranteed way forward to have the park closed for good, thus being available for redevelopment.

Look at what Oakwood Park have done from a mere farm...or what Adventure Island have done in a similar market. Success is possible for Dreamland as an Amusement Park, catering for young and old alike.

David.

There is a size and the Dreamland site is far too smal & close to residential property to be a Theme Park It could not in any case compete with the other major Theme parks in the London Area.

Oakwood Park is far larger then the Dreamland site & is away from Residential property. It also has little competition no competition for hundres of miles.

The market research indicates that Dreamland can be succesfull on a smaller scale and targeted at the under 10 market. It will not be going for the big thrill rides which it could not compete with. There will still be the Scenic railway for those that like a bit more excitment. Otherwise one will have to go to the likes of Thorpe Park or Chessington.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

There is a size and the Dreamland site is far too smal & close to residential property to be a Theme Park.

There is no difference between an amusement park and a theme park other than semantics.

In the 1980s the site was known as Bembom Brothers Theme Park and I can assure you that it was exactly the same size and in exactly the same place as it is now.

The site is viable as an amusement/theme park, but because of changes in planning regs, would realise a greater selling price if used for other purposes- eg retail or housing. This is no reason for TDC to authorise a change of use, not least because of the impact this would have on the local economy as a whole.

[Bob]

There is a size and the Dreamland site is far too smal & close to residential property to be a Theme Park.

There is no difference between an amusement park and a theme park other than semantics.

In the 1980s the site was known as Bembom Brothers Theme Park and I can assure you that it was exactly the same size and in exactly the same place as it is now.

The site is viable as an amusement/theme park, but because of changes in planning regs, would realise a greater selling price if used for other purposes- eg retail or housing. This is no reason for TDC to authorise a change of use, not least because of the impact this would have on the local economy as a whole.

Well you may not se the difference but there is a very big difference between an Amusement Park and a Theme Park. Dreamland is am Amusement Park no mater what name Benboms may have given it. Whilst under Benbom's dreamland did exceed a Million visitors a year I am not aware of it ever reaching 2,000,00. You are also talking about over 25 years ago the market has declined significantly over those years and there is intense competition from major theme parks.

No matter how much you wish for Dreamland to return to its heyday of the 1970's its just not going to happen. Back then Margate would see its population quadrupled with holiday makers with day trippers mainly at week end on top of that. Nowaday Margate is lucky if it gets a few thousand holiday makers a week. It would be financial suicide to reopen Dreamland in its 1970's mode. Sadly the world has moved on that market is no longer there. The Dreamland site is not particlarly attractive whilst some things can be done it will never be a great site. Its a bit like a run down carpark. Outside of Dreamland there is nothing left in Margate to attract visitors. Everything other then the beach that would have catered for them has gone. The seafront area has been allowed to become rundown and tatty with many shops etc closed and boarded up. It just not an attractive town or venue for people to visit. Look at how high the standards are in the Theme parks and that what Margate is competing against. Margate is just not in the same league.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Whilst under Benbom's dreamland did exceed a Million visitors a year I am not aware of it ever reaching 2,000,000

"Bringing this new lease of life to Dreamland was fully justified in the first few seasons with attendances of nearly two million a year"

Source, Dreamland Remembered, Nick Evans edition 1 page 77

[cliffc]

Well you may not se the difference but there is a very big difference between an Amusement Park and a Theme Park. Dreamland is am Amusement Park no mater what name Benboms may have given it. Whilst under Benbom's dreamland did exceed a Million visitors a year I am not aware of it ever reaching 2,000,00. You are also talking about over 25 years ago the market has declined significantly over those years and there is intense competition from major theme parks.

No matter how much you wish for Dreamland to return to its heyday of the 1970's its just not going to happen. Back then Margate would see its population quadrupled with holiday makers with day trippers mainly at week end on top of that. Nowaday Margate is lucky if it gets a few thousand holiday makers a week. It would be financial suicide to reopen Dreamland in its 1970's mode. Sadly the world has moved on that market is no longer there. The Dreamland site is not particlarly attractive whilst some things can be done it will never be a great site. Its a bit like a run down carpark. Outside of Dreamland there is nothing left in Margate to attract visitors. Everything other then the beach that would have catered for them has gone. The seafront area has been allowed to become rundown and tatty with many shops etc closed and boarded up. It just not an attractive town or venue for people to visit. Look at how high the standards are in the Theme parks and that what Margate is competing against. Margate is just not in the same league.[/quote]

Hi All

Bob keeps sayng that Dreamland will not pay as a full theme/amusement park (I think we can stop this debate about the name) because it will need many millions of pounds of investment in order to bring it up to standard, this is obviously not in doubt, however the partys who have looked at the park and are intrestsed in investing in it will have all, had to create a buisness plan and have obviously considered all of the pros and cons. thay must know that the plan is a viable one, as no one is going to invest those sorts of sums of cash without careful consideration.

The shops and other buisnesses on the sea front have only been allowed to get tatty because of the lack of visitors to spend cash in them the owners could not continue trading, with a revialised dreamland to attract more visitors to the town thease and many other buisness will be able to attract new investment in them as potential buisness will see that people will once again are retuning to Margate and therefore will see that thay to can make money in the town.

Where i would agree there are many places that the People of London and surrounding areas can go to for a day out, and at the moment as much as it pains me to say this I would guess that Margate is not top of there list of places to goto, However with a fully open revamped Dreamland this postion would alter, however it would need to provide a selection of attractions for all of the family not just the under 10's to attract the numbers requred to make it pay, and to get the visitors back, Margate has a good access from London and surrounding towns and citys, both by rail and road.

Other attractions in Margate are able to turn a good profit like the shell grotto, obviously this attraction is not as large as Dreamland and can be run on less staff and with smaller upkeep overhead, but it still proves that people are coming to Margate either as day vistors or for longer stays, and that a well run attraction will attract visitors.

Bob also keeps going on about the numbers of days a year Dreamland is open but there is much scope for this to be increased and thus increase the potental for pulling in more visitors.

CLiff C

[Sarah]

Well of course the Grotto operates on a much smaller scale to Dreamland. We are a much smaller attraction, our overheads are much lower and, crucially, even if operating at absolute capacity we could not hope to achieve a fraction of Dreamland's turnover. Or its net profit.

But the Grotto's continuing success proves that there is a tourism market in Margate - despite all the town's obvious problems. If there wasn't I would have been declared bankrupt by now.

In response to Dave H's post - I have been giving this serious consideration for the best part of three years. If I didn't wholeheartedly believe that a well-run amusement park could be viable for 52 weeks of the year (see Adventure Island) then trust me, I would have given this Campaign up.

It's got nothing to do with being an eternal optimist either. It's about living here, working here, talking to its residents and traders, knowing the place and its tourism industry inside out and being ABSOLUTELY BLOODY CONVINCED that Margate has no future without a revitalised Dreamland at its heart.

Sarah

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Bob, I wonder if you would care to expand on your own personal vision for Dreamland? You say that the site needs to make a return on the large investment needed- which of course it does- but nowhere have you been specific as to what exactly you feel should be the new format for the site.

Do you have in mind something which will attract money inwards towards Thanet- if so, would you explain what sort of attraction you mean- or do you simply envisage some type of retail development which will merely dilute the available local spend?