Joyland Books

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 00:30**

For many years I understood that the Scenic Railway was a listed structure and that it was somehow legally protected.

It is now well over a year since it caught fire and nothing has been done- absolutely nothing whatsoever- to rebuild it.

Is it going to be re-built?

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 10:20**

a) listing only gives a certain amount of protection;

b) isn't the rebuild part of what all the multi million pounds grant applications by a consortium of organisations is about, for the wider renewal of Dreamland?

All part and parcel of the whole scheme.

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 11:26**

But is there no obligation on the part of the current owner to have the work carried out? I would have thought that the structure would have needed to be insured and that this, rather than any grant awarded should be used for the re-build?

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 13:44**

Not as simple as that, and it may not, of course, have been insured.

Instead, Dreamland will be handed over to a Trust to build the new Dreamland, if the grant applications are successful. The owners of the site are part of this wider scheme, as are other bodies/organisations.

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 16:47**

I freely admit that I know very little about the Listed Buildings regs, but I'm amazed that they do not require the owner of a listed building to insure it.

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 17:46**

No, there is no such requirement, and what can and can't be enforced is very complex indeed.

However, this way Dreamland gets resurrected, win win situation.

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 18:08**

Well I certainly hope so. The boys were telling me again this week how much they miss riding the Scenic Railway- we used to be at Dreamland pretty much every weekend. They asked me if the Scenic Railway was ever going to run again so I said I just didn't know, which was why I posed the question here.

I do realise that the present economic situation has made the once proposed development unviable and know that the chances of Dreamland's future as a theme park are rising by the day. Frankly, I was amazed that the Scenic Railway burnt down when it did- the timing could hardly have been worse.

I realise it can be no more than "guesstimation", but would you or anybody else be able to speculate on when the Scenic Railway might be operational?

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 20:08**

Hi
I am concerned there does not seem to be any back up plan for The Scenic. I hope the funding does happen but sometimes these things take time and several goes, time is not on the Scenics side. I think the Scenic will be rebuilt but 90% of it will be new.
As a presavationist i have been involved with a paddle steamer the Medway Queen. This is a paddle steamer that moved troops in the second world war. When this steamer was bought back to the Medway towns in the mid eighties it was inspected by engineers. The report stated there are no reason why it could not be fully repaired.
The Trust paided a profesional company to apply for funding. This company applied three times over about fifteen years.
The Trust eventually got the funding but time had run out for the Steamer and a new hull is now being made in Bristol. It is hoped the engines and the decking will be used from the orginal. The orginal steamer has now been cut up. In my eyes what we will now get is a new steamer.
In my eyes we have lost a large chunk of this ride and the owner should be made to do more to help retain whats left.
I hope all goes well for the trust and all the funding happens first time round.
I cant wait to get back there as it has been a big part of my life for the last forty years.

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 20:15**

Hi Vince et al - sorry I seem to miss you at the Margate Big Event last month by the way.

I suppose most of us here feel quite frustrated every time we see the quite dismal view of what remains of the Scenic Railway. Quite what visitors to the car park must think is another matter!

Like you, after the fire last April, I thought the owners had an obligation to rebuild the ride, however, they only appear to have put resources into protecting its boundary with the upgraded fencing.

I guess, as I've said on another post here, just about the best thing we could all do at present is to write to the Secretary of Culture, Media & the Arts and voice our passion for the resurgence of Dreamland, in light of our Sea Change bid for funding.

Meanwhile, I am planning a personal trip to Denmark's Bakken amusement park next month as they have a slightly younger Scenic than ours (c 1932) and apparently it'll be its last operational year with brakemen this season. See http://www.bakken.dk/bakkens_forretning ... banen.html for info. If you care to join us give me a shout; I'm planning on going with a friend from the European Coaster Club.

We're also planning to visit Tivoli Gardens and maybe Bonbon Land. It could be interesting to hear how they plan on transforming their Scenic to an "automated" version (something I believe was once mentioned that might have to happen to Margate's Scenic in the future). I guess it'll all be about economics.

Martin

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 20:37**

aweber1us wrote:The Trust eventually got the funding but time had run out for the Steamer and a new hull is now being made in Bristol. It is hoped the engines and the decking will be used from the orginal. The orginal steamer has now been cut up. In my eyes what we will now get is a new steamer.
In my eyes we have lost a large chunk of this ride and the owner should be made to do more to help retain whats left.

I just could not agree more with this.

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 20:49**

EAS wrote:No, there is no such requirement, and what can and can't be enforced is very complex indeed.

I'm sure. I understand that the owner of a listed building cannot even change the colour of the paintwork without permission.

Surely there should be some obligation on the owner of a listed building to insure it? If you can't even re-paint a listed building, then surely you should not be allowed to let it to be completely destroyed for the sake of an insurance premium?

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 20:57**

The News page has today been updated with the latest on Dreamland.

The latest news from the Save Dreamland Campaign:
Saturday, 11 July 2009

There were a number of Dreamland-related meetings last week. Nick Laister represented the Dreamland Trust at a meeting with Sea Change programme director Sarah Gaventa in Margate on Tuesday 6 July. This included a visit to the site and a tour of the Cinema building.

On Thursday 8 July, Nick Laister and Sarah Vickery represented the Trust at a meeting of the Dreamland Client Group in Margate. Also in attendance were representatives from Margate Renewal Partnership, Thanet District Council, Margate Town Centre Regeneration Company and The Prince's Regeneration Trust. On the agenda were the various grant bids and the construction programme.

We have now updated the Heritage Amusement Park pages to include details of the Junior Whip, which was acquired from Pleasure Beach Blackpool in June. Click here for the Junior Whip page.

Tuesday, 6 July 2009

Sea Change decision expected soon

Tension mounts as the Save Dreamland Campaign waits to hear if Thanet District Council's bid for £4million from Wave 3 of Sea Change funding has been successful. The application was put together by a committed team from the Margate Renewal Partnership, The Dreamland Trust, site owners the Margate Town Centre Regeneration Company and Thanet District Council. Feasibility work for the project was also supported by Kent County Council, SEEDA, English Heritage and the Arts Council England.

The Government-funded Sea Change scheme aims to regenerate historic seaside towns through investment in cultural projects. Its priority is to invest in the most deprived seaside resorts in England, and in the best quality applications.

"Sadly, Margate certainly falls into the first category," comments Sarah Vickery. "On a more positive note, we all believe that our application is of the highest calibre."

A decision is expected to be made public by the end of July. For more information on the initiative:

http://www.cabe.org.uk/sea-change

And keep everything crossed!

Let's remember that the Scenic has been repaired so many times, in fact one major fire in the past meant that a great deal of it consists of timber from Lowestoft pier, and other repair work. It's in a category pretty much of its own, as far as listed structures are concerned, which is recognised in its listing description. We can't bring back lost historic fabric, and the ride needs to be safe.

What remains is the plan and the history. We can quibble, but frankly I would suggest those of us who wish to see Dreamland resurrected don't. The owner is co-operating hugely, and handing over a vast amount of 'real estate'.

And I don't actually think we will need a Plan B.

Building Name: The Scenic Railway Dreamland
Parish: Margate
District: Thanet
County: Kent
Postcode:
LBS Number: 488465
Grade: II
Date Listed: 01 March 2002

National Grid Reference: TR3510170538

Listing Text:

TR3570NW BELGRAVE ROAD
878/1/10021 (West,off)
01-MAR-02 The Scenic Railway, Dreamland

GV II

Rollercoaster. 1919-1920, restored after fires in 1949 and 1957. Developed by John Henry Iles, who bought the European rights for the Scenic Railway from Coney Island, New York, whence he imported some of the moving parts. Timber lattice structure supporting double loop of iron tracks, with pulleys and endless steel rope to two haulage slopes; the trackway sunk between railed walkways for a stable ride and sharper bends. Two trains, each of three permanently linked cars with brakeman, one of only two rides in England with a train controlled by a brakeman riding on the vehicle (the other is that of 1932 at Great Yarmouth.

This is the oldest surviving rollercoaster in Great Britain, and one of just two examples of a surviving Scenic Railway. Although repaired after fires and regularly maintained, with a repair programme of new planking each spring, the form of the ride is the original. The only rollercoaster in Europe known to be older is that at the Tivoli Gardens, Copenhagen, of c.1914, which this closely resembles.

Source
Kent Journal of the County Society, no.235, Spring 1986

Posted: **11 Jul 2009, 21:49**

Something that does concern me is how safe the 'safe storage site' seems to be. We have seen in pictures where it is so how safe is it as there is quite a few rides building up round there.

Posted: **12 Jul 2009, 09:15**

Well, I have no idea how safe the storage is, we can only hope that it is safe.

From the report on the News page:

I rang the security man on the way to ensure access to our safe storage site

Listed buildings/structures;

I'm sure. I understand that the owner of a listed building cannot even change the colour of the paintwork without permission.

Surely there should be some obligation on the owner of a listed building to insure it? If you can't even re-paint a listed building, then surely you should not be allowed to let it to be completely destroyed for the sake of an insurance premium?

Yes, you need listed building consent to do works which alter the character of a building. But there is no legal requirement to have to insure. Whatever we may think about the laws regarding the protection of listed buildings, they are as they are.

The legal situation is complex where there is destruction, but frankly, for several reasons, I think a discussion in public may not be A Good Thing.

:wink:

The owners of the structure and the site are working together with a number of other bodies to help see Dreamland resurrected as an amusement park, and the cinema re-used. That's the best of outcomes.

Posted: **14 Jul 2009, 21:54**

There's more going on than just the Railway, people. It is only one part of the bigger picture.
Have confidence in our leaders. I do.

Joyland Books

Is the Scenic Railway ever going to be re-built?

Is the Scenic Railway ever going to be re-built?