Joyland Books

Hi all

I have been a way from the site for a while and have just been reading the latest news page, and from what I have seen the report is positive and what every one here has been fighting for, but what is dissapointing is that the report is not legaly binding and if thay so desire the council can ride rough shod over the whole report and still say thay want what thay want and approve the change as wanted by the new owners and Godden. However as the site has many listed buildings as well as the sceneic on there, the campain would still have many grounds on which to fight to keep it open as a theme/amusement park and the report can only help strengthen this fight if it comes. I am sure that Nick et al are allready formulateing plans in this event.
And just so every one knows i am not a resident of Margate and have only been to Dreamland once in the summer of 2003, and my in 1st post on here proberly long gone now, suggested that the place was so grotty that it should be pulled down and demolished, however following the replys i got to that post on here and from further research, my positon changed to that of the campain and now beleve it should be saved, I come from the North East and am 44 in my youth we had amusement parks in Redcar, Seaton Carew, Whitley Bay, South Sheilds & Roker, with the exeption of the last 2 the others have all gone and most of the day trippers that used to come in the summer have gone with them. Dreamland must stay and be operated by some one who gives a damn so that it can retun to the glory days as it was when it featured in the Jolly Boys Outing epesode of Only Fools & Horses. And so that people will have a reason to come for a day out in Margate rather than go anywhere else. This is a good victory but the war i feel has yet to be won, but I know the fight will go on.

CLiff C

cliffc wrote:Hi all

I have been a way from the site for a while and have just been reading the latest news page, and from what I have seen the report is positive and what every one here has been fighting for, but what is dissapointing is that the report is not legaly binding and if thay so desire the council can ride rough shod over the whole report and still say thay want what thay want and approve the change as wanted by the new owners and Godden. However as the site has many listed buildings as well as the sceneic on there, the campain would still have many grounds on which to fight to keep it open as a theme/amusement park and the report can only help strengthen this fight if it comes. I am sure that Nick et al are allready formulateing plans in this event.
And just so every one knows i am not a resident of Margate and have only been to Dreamland once in the summer of 2003, and my in 1st post on here proberly long gone now, suggested that the place was so grotty that it should be pulled down and demolished, however following the replys i got to that post on here and from further research, my positon changed to that of the campain and now beleve it should be saved, I come from the North East and am 44 in my youth we had amusement parks in Redcar, Seaton Carew, Whitley Bay, South Sheilds & Roker, with the exeption of the last 2 the others have all gone and most of the day trippers that used to come in the summer have gone with them. Dreamland must stay and be operated by some one who gives a damn so that it can retun to the glory days as it was when it featured in the Jolly Boys Outing epesode of Only Fools & Horses. And so that people will have a reason to come for a day out in Margate rather than go anywhere else. This is a good victory but the war i feel has yet to be won, but I know the fight will go on.

CLiff C

As you point out Dreamland is curently a dump as is most of the town centre. You also highlight the number of Amusement Parks parks that have closed in the North East. With the demise of Holidaymakers in the UK its an almost impossible task to operate an amusement park at a profit. The lower visitor numbers also have the affect of pushing up prices probably to the level at which visitors find them too expensive. Any way forward with Dreamland is likely to require considerable investment to upgrade the park. This investment is highly unlikely to be recovered from increased visitor numbers. The very short season does not help neither. The only likely viable approach would be a mixture of suitable retail & amusement park. The layout should alo be such as to change the mix depending on the season. In sumer more should be given over to Amusements & in Winter more shoud be given over to retail.

Hello Bob,

I wonder if you are yet ready to reply to the postings I made respectfully asking you what your interest in Dreamland is?

Vince

A question also asked by myself on more than one occasion.

Bob - there is a great thread called "Introducing yourselves" on the Forums...please be kind enough to use it!

David.

Bob is your real name Jimmy or do you work for Jimmy.

The question is quite straight forward maybe you would be kind enough to answer this one.

thanks.

I'm sure Nick would agree that anybody opposing the retention of Dreamland as an amusement park would be welcome to post here. The description of this forum reads, in part............

" What is your reaction to the news that the park is to close? Should the Scenic Railway be demolished? Post your views here!"

And so if Bob thinks it should be demolished, he is welcome to say so. I just can't understand why he is so reluctant to help us to understand the position from which he posts his views.

Bob, this is a forum. It exists for the free exchange of viewpoints. Can I ask you once again to help us to understand you? Can I ask you once again to say what your interest in Dreamland is?

As you point out Dreamland is curently a dump as is most of the town centre. You also highlight the number of Amusement Parks parks that have closed in the North East. With the demise of Holidaymakers in the UK its an almost impossible task to operate an amusement park at a profit. The lower visitor numbers also have the affect of pushing up prices probably to the level at which visitors find them too expensive. Any way forward with Dreamland is likely to require considerable investment to upgrade the park. This investment is highly unlikely to be recovered from increased visitor numbers. The very short season does not help neither. The only likely viable approach would be a mixture of suitable retail & amusement park. The layout should alo be such as to change the mix depending on the season. In sumer more should be given over to Amusements & in Winter more shoud be given over to retail.[/quote]

Hi All

As I pointed out several parks in the north east have Closed the Spanish City in whitley bay was effectively closed by the local council, who have compulsory purchaced the land and the main entrance building, up to this time as far as i am aware this park was making a profit as were the busnisses in the main building, the park was run each summer by letting out the space to traveling rides and attractions with a few permainant ones like the coaster. The site is now empty and the building falling into disrepar as the council cannot make there mind up what to do with the site.

I did say the dreamland site was a dump but its only got that way because it has been allowed to by its current owners, the reasons for that being blindingly obvious I think. As to your suggetion of having more amusements in the summer and more given over to retial just cannot work unless by retail you mean market stalls that can be put up and down to suit the season. The only real solution is to have the park with permainat attractions along the lines of the plans that Phillp Miller wants to impliment, and thease plans would allow the season to be extended byond the normal, even if the park only opened a weekends after the school holiday periods and may be fully opening for the october 1/2 term week, and finishing the season on Nov 5th with a firework event, this would increase the revene of the park and obviously the visitor numbers. and i am assuming that Phillip has done all of his calculations so he knows he get the numbers he needs to make it pay.
The other thing that will pull in the vistors is that the place would be open at the advertised times and for the full duration of the season, plus the place will be well publicised, this in its self will produce bigger numbers, if this does not happen then Margate will become another Whitly Bay completly deserted with no visitors at all.

CLiff C

You're right that the season is ripe to be extended. When I took over at the Grotto it was open Easter to October only, which I thought was a mistake. We open weekends all through winter now, and we always get visitors.

My experience is that people still want to do something with their weekends, be it November or August. Of course we are an indoor attraction, but Adventure Island has proved that seaside amusement parks can be viable as year-round operations, and I think the Grotto proves that an attraction in Margate can pull in punters all year.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation in Margate, indeed in Thanet - it needs a few people to put in the hours, have some faith and open their doors and then people will come. It's worked for us.

You also make a very good point about Philip Miller - as you say, he has done his calculations. The current owners and their associates can whine on all they like about the park not being viable and it needing substantial retail (although apparently only shops that can be taken down in the summer, so I assume the contract will go to Lego) but Philip is nobody's fool. He's an astute and very successful businessman who simply wouldn't be considering investing in the site unless he was absolutely sure he could turn a decent profit.

When I bought the Grotto it had been on the market for three years with no interest. (My accountant looked at the books and laughed - he stopped laughing when he realised I was serious.) For me, the fact that it hadn't been doing much business had absolutely nothing to do with how much business it could do if run properly. In fact, it meant I could start pretty much from scratch which was an appealing prospect. Four years on and there isn't an accountant in the land who would laugh at my books!

Sarah

as we are talking about whitley bay (my home town) and margate-

ask any trader (the few ones left!) in whitley bay and they will tell you the same thing- since the spanish city closed trade has dissapeared and charity shops/empty shops have taken over

Same with Margate. Dreamland's deliberate neglect has caused local businesses to tumble like dominos. It's a sad state of affairs when seafront amusement arcades, souvenir shops and cafes remain boarded up through the season because of the loss of our major tourist attraction.

Sarah wrote:You're right that the season is ripe to be extended. When I took over at the Grotto it was open Easter to October only, which I thought was a mistake. We open weekends all through winter now, and we always get visitors.

My experience is that people still want to do something with their weekends, be it November or August. Of course we are an indoor attraction, but Adventure Island has proved that seaside amusement parks can be viable as year-round operations, and I think the Grotto proves that an attraction in Margate can pull in punters all year.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation in Margate, indeed in Thanet - it needs a few people to put in the hours, have some faith and open their doors and then people will come. It's worked for us.

You also make a very good point about Philip Miller - as you say, he has done his calculations. The current owners and their associates can whine on all they like about the park not being viable and it needing substantial retail (although apparently only shops that can be taken down in the summer, so I assume the contract will go to Lego) but Philip is nobody's fool. He's an astute and very successful businessman who simply wouldn't be considering investing in the site unless he was absolutely sure he could turn a decent profit.

When I bought the Grotto it had been on the market for three years with no interest. (My accountant looked at the books and laughed - he stopped laughing when he realised I was serious.) For me, the fact that it hadn't been doing much business had absolutely nothing to do with how much business it could do if run properly. In fact, it meant I could start pretty much from scratch which was an appealing prospect. Four years on and there isn't an accountant in the land who would laugh at my books!

Sarah

HI all

I think Sarah has proved that with a little vision, hard work and comitment that the season can be extended and the visitors will come out on a weekend year round, given even just modreately good weather. The Christmas holliday period is a prime time for getting more buisness. I know from last year on i went to Scarbrough on Boxing Day and the town was as busy as any summer after noon and all the business along the front seemed to be having a stedy flow of customers.
Phillip must have done his research well as he will be investing a lot of his time and money into the venture so he will want a good retun on this investment and as you pointed out he has a well proven buisness record with what he as done at Southend.
What the both Godden and the council seem to have overlooked in all of this is that without a visitor attraction such as Dreamland visitors wont come to Margate and if you have no visitors who is going to spend the money in all of this new prime retail space, some of which will vanish in the summer and then pop back in the winter (I think the contract will go to D Blaine building contractors as it will need a magician to pull off that trick).
Where as if Phillip or some other operator with vision comes along and rebuilds the site puts in the time and effort, promotes the location well ( as i have pointed out before the hotel i stayed in had no promotion for either margate or Dreamland) The only reason I knew margate exisited was because of the only fools and horses episode jolly boys outing. Then people will come back to the town, which will not only make dreamland more proftable, but will bring more investment into the existing empty premisis, because when other buisness people see that there are people comming back into the town thay will invest in new buisness becasue thay 2 will get a return on there investments, it would also mean that all of the currently closed properties will re-open further improveing the appreance of the town, things like the new arts center being built will bring some visitors to Margate but not the sort of people who will spend cash, this needs familys and young people.
If the alternative is put in place then not only will there be whole load of new shops on Dreamland site that will be empty because there are no people comming to Margate to spend the cash in them, the town will go the way of Whitley Bay ghost towns et al and evan the grotto would suffer from the lack of visitors. If this nightmare was to happen there would only be the people like Sarah and Nick to say to the council we told you so, but by then it will be too late.
This is why Dreamland has to remain and the alternaive pushed on the scrap heap of bad ideas never to surface again.

Cliff C