Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

The Save Dreamland Campaign was launched by Joyland Books in January 2003 and is now supported by several thousand people. This is the place to discuss all aspects of saving Margate's famous amusement park and its iconic , Grade II listed Scenic Railway, Britain's oldest roller coaster.

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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby aweber1us » 05 Aug 2016, 22:16

Thanks for that information Nick much along the lines of what I already had heard. I'm glad the Save Dreamland forum is still going as it seem to be a life line for some people that don't get out much.
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby Bob » 06 Aug 2016, 07:02

smilerbaker wrote:link doesn't work


Hopefully the links below should work

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... 4/document
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... 4/document
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby Bob » 07 Aug 2016, 08:13

Your claim conflicts with that of the administrators who have clearly stated that Dreamland is not viable as a going concern. Their plan is to continue trading through the summer in the hope of making a small profit during August. Currently in spite of the measures they have taken to reduces costs Dreamland has still been trading at loss. The Arrowgrass loan is also costing Dreamland £2.4M

The plan is to start liquidating the companies assets with peripheral ones such as the Pub & Club & beach huts and Undercroft probably being the first to be sold. The Dreamland lease may be sold as well if they can realize enough from it to pay off Arrowgrass


The administrators have had no approaches from anyone willing to take on ~Dreamland as a going concern so I do not understand the basis of your claim when clearly the company is going to be liquidated
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby ROBERT » 09 Aug 2016, 10:25

Let me make clear I have no inside knowledge, but I have followed everything very closely over many years. The recent headlines on the BBC & in the local press are like many threads here very misleading. It is Sands Heritage, not Dreamland that is on its last legs.

I have had a business lease & it did not permit me to change the business without the freehold owner's consent, let alone pull it down & build housing. I should imagine the Dreamland lease would be to operate Dreamland full stop. The offshore loan company would have had confidence in the current administrators to turn the business around given their track record & were prepared to take the risk with a very high return - the report gives a figure of 2 million owed to them - they would certainly have no intention of running Dreamland themselves.

The report makes clear that selling it as a going concern would be a desired outcome, but not at present, as first it needs to be turned around & requires further investment to make it attractive to any future buyer - it is this the creditors agreed to. The administrators seem to be making headway having increased footfall, going for a 2nd train, getting the scenic railway & Octopus garden back on track, opening the Hall by the Sea & pursuing extra rides. Signs at present could not be more hopeful.

As for building houses as a solution- this is a non starter, at least for many years. The terms of the CPO made it clear that such profits would revert to the Goddens. Councils can't take out a CPO to do what the original owners intended to do, at least not for, I think it was 10 years, without compensating further the original owners.
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby aweber1us » 09 Aug 2016, 12:42

With it all you have to pick out the truth from the crap some of it is fact. Some of what Bob does is just to push peoples buttons,we all know him and he has given us a good laugh over the years. One that springs to mind is when he posted that they were going to cut the Dragons heads off the Scenic trains as the scared small children. Who remembers that one ?
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby Bob » 09 Aug 2016, 14:52

ROBERT wrote:Let me make clear I have no inside knowledge, but I have followed everything very closely over many years. The recent headlines on the BBC & in the local press are like many threads here very misleading. It is Sands Heritage, not Dreamland that is on its last legs.

I have had a business lease & it did not permit me to change the business without the freehold owner's consent, let alone pull it down & build housing. I should imagine the Dreamland lease would be to operate Dreamland full stop. The offshore loan company would have had confidence in the current administrators to turn the business around given their track record & were prepared to take the risk with a very high return - the report gives a figure of 2 million owed to them - they would certainly have no intention of running Dreamland themselves.

The report makes clear that selling it as a going concern would be a desired outcome, but not at present, as first it needs to be turned around & requires further investment to make it attractive to any future buyer - it is this the creditors agreed to. The administrators seem to be making headway having increased footfall, going for a 2nd train, getting the scenic railway & Octopus garden back on track, opening the Hall by the Sea & pursuing extra rides. Signs at present could not be more hopeful.

As for building houses as a solution- this is a non starter, at least for many years. The terms of the CPO made it clear that such profits would revert to the Goddens. Councils can't take out a CPO to do what the original owners intended to do, at least not for, I think it was 10 years, without compensating further the original owners.



First Sands Heratige Ltd is the company in administration. Dreamland is the trading name of Sands Heratige. The administartors have made it clear that Dreamland is not a viable going concern. I suggest you read the report. Currently there is a charge on the Dreamland lease to Arrowgrass, Dreamland have to pay them t £2.4M to but out the charge
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby smilerbaker » 10 Aug 2016, 14:06

they have a lease for the site, as long as the site is back to it original state at the end of the lease, or the owner agrees to the changes then they can pretty much do as they please, eg build some appartments with a 97 year leasehold on them, job done (planning permission issues aside)

of course they can't knock down anything already there without permission but there is more then enough blank space on the site.

sands obviously want to hold onto the lease, and if the past year has shown us anything its clearly not to run a fun park!

yes, I've also leased business premises over the years ;)
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby ROBERT » 10 Aug 2016, 18:15

First Sands Heratige Ltd is the company in administration. Dreamland is the trading name of Sands Heratige. The administartors have made it clear that Dreamland is not a viable going concern.

That is not how I understand the report. My reading is that Sands Heritage Ltd is not a viable concern & presumably can't be saved. If Dreamland itself could not be turned round & sold as a going concern, why do they list this as a possible outcome? - Section 9.12 "This (amount of recovery) is dependent...on whether a sale of the business can be achieved"
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby ROBERT » 11 Aug 2016, 07:42

yes, I've also leased business premises over the years

Yes that's the point - all leases are different. I can't imagine even TDC allowing the owner's of the lease to simply do what they like on the site other than to run Dreamland. I only hope there is a clause in it in which the lease is forfeited if they fail to deliver.
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby ROBERT » 11 Aug 2016, 10:08

Another point that is often lost sight of is that Sands Heritage is not just Dreamland as we know it. They also took out leases from a private landlord on two other businesses - one a public house & the other previously a nightclub.
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby smilerbaker » 11 Aug 2016, 11:49

ROBERT wrote:
. I only hope there is a clause in it in which the lease is forfeited if they fail to deliver.


as sands has already (in effect) sold the lease to there own phoenix company, I'd say not.
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby Bob » 11 Aug 2016, 17:35

My understanding is the Pub & the Club are subject to seperate 20 year leases and there is to my knowledge no charge on them. What value they have I dont know.There are also seperate leases for the Hall by the sea and the Undercroft. They also own 10 beach huts. Currently Sands have the Dreamland site for 14 years at peppercorn rent. There is a charge on the main lease and I would assume if the lease were sold the pepercorn rent would no longer apply. To date Dreamland has never made a trading profit. The administrators thing it may make a small profit in August but they are not certain. They have taken steps to reduce costs. If they cannot make a profit when they have no lease costs is not good without mega investment and a total change of strategy Dreamland has no hope. It would have to be far small and much lower cost with some of the site used for housing and retail
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby Vince, Charlie and Sam » 12 Aug 2016, 22:30

Bob wrote:My understanding is the Pub & the Club are subject to seperate 20 year leases and there is to my knowledge no charge on them. What value they have I dont know.There are also seperate leases for the Hall by the sea and the Undercroft. They also own 10 beach huts. Currently Sands have the Dreamland site for 14 years at peppercorn rent. There is a charge on the main lease and I would assume if the lease were sold the pepercorn rent would no longer apply. To date Dreamland has never made a trading profit. The administrators thing it may make a small profit in August but they are not certain. They have taken steps to reduce costs. If they cannot make a profit when they have no lease costs is not good without mega investment and a total change of strategy Dreamland has no hope. It would have to be far small and much lower cost with some of the site used for housing and retail


I'm guessing that as Dreamland's former General Manager, you must know what you are talking about Barry.

https://www.duedil.com/director/9073079 ... james-moss

About

Mr Barry James Moss is British. The first directorship we have on file for him was in 2000 at Dreamland Leisure Limited. His newest directorship was with Dreamland Leisure Limited where he held the position of "General manager". The company was established 16 Oct 1995.
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby ROBERT » 13 Aug 2016, 06:49

At least "Bob" now concedes it could be sold as a going concern - he just does not hold out much hope but reverts to the plan they tried to implement before they closed it! However, according to the local press at the time, the owner of the Southend park was happy to take it off your your hands as he knew he could make a go of it - he was disgusted to find that you wanted funny money for it - & said at the time you had no love for Dreamland or for Margate.
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Re: Is It The End for Dreamland. Is the Dream Over?

Postby Bob » 13 Aug 2016, 11:29

Dreamland is not viable as a going concern. It has never made a profit. It has run up huge losses. It has never even made a trading profit. It has some assets but they don't have a lot of value. On current trading Dreamland will run out of money by year end at the latest
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