Off Topic - Pleasureland Southport to close

The Save Dreamland Campaign was launched by Joyland Books in January 2003 and is now supported by several thousand people. This is the place to discuss all aspects of saving Margate's famous amusement park and its iconic , Grade II listed Scenic Railway, Britain's oldest roller coaster.

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Postby Jim Douglas Jr. » 27 Sep 2006, 00:56

Oh, I totally have a vision of it. It could be freaking grand.
Even a little petting zoo with some miniature goats. A rose garden.
Saltwater taffy and fudge made right on site. Home made cookies and hand dipped ice cream in waffle cones.
The possibilities are endless.
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Postby Marky66 » 27 Sep 2006, 07:15

I would love too see someone recreate a fair such as this and I'm sure it would be a winner.
Traveling fairs are not the most savory of places to visit these days but once a year Carters Steam Fair come to our area with it's vintage rides and exhibits and it's always heaving, and packed with families not spotty teens in hoods!
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Postby Coaster Manta » 27 Sep 2006, 13:20

Sounds like we have some great ideas about this. Now we need to work out how to turn them into a reality.
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Postby furie » 27 Sep 2006, 13:38

Coaster Manta wrote:Sounds like we have some great ideas about this. Now we need to work out how to turn them into a reality.


Well, it's lottery night again tonight... ;)

Seriously, I don't have enough savings or assetts to even consider looking for anyone to back me financially. You'd be looking at millions to set something up and buy the rides and lease off PBB. A decent lottery win could give you enough investment to take to a financial backer (bank or other) to get it all set up. I wouldn't expect to see your investment make any return though for a long time.

So, it's up to the "big-boys" to try and come up with something, but I'd say Pleasureland isn't in a favourable condition for anyone to come forwards.
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Postby Bob » 27 Sep 2006, 17:55

furie wrote:
Coaster Manta wrote:Sounds like we have some great ideas about this. Now we need to work out how to turn them into a reality.


Well, it's lottery night again tonight... ;)

Seriously, I don't have enough savings or assetts to even consider looking for anyone to back me financially. You'd be looking at millions to set something up and buy the rides and lease off PBB. A decent lottery win could give you enough investment to take to a financial backer (bank or other) to get it all set up. I wouldn't expect to see your investment make any return though for a long time.

So, it's up to the "big-boys" to try and come up with something, but I'd say Pleasureland isn't in a favourable condition for anyone to come forwards.


YOu do not need millions. You would need to demonstrate some financial commitment. You would also need to show you had the expertise and experience needed. That need not be you but someone that would be part of the management team. You would also need a good business plan to show the venture would be profitable.
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Postby Neil » 27 Sep 2006, 20:12

Bob, I'm afraid you would need to be able to put up millions yourself to take on Pleasureland. As you pointed out you would need to show financial commitment, and anything below 20% would be unlikely to suffice. I'm not sure how much it would cost to buy Pleasureland and then replace rides such as Traumatizer, but it would be large. In terms of things such as a businessplan, this is correct, however a good business plan alone would not do. Realistically as had already been established it is not possible for us to buy the park, but we are happy to support amusement parks by attendance and helping to publicise them.
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Postby Neil » 28 Sep 2006, 08:45

I guess it's time to touch wood, but it seems that Furie and EAS have done an excellent job of putting all the information together, so atleast what ever happens it's been given a decent shot. It all sounds promising, and whatever happens it seems people are going to put up a fight. I have to say this is far more excitting than dwelling over who will get kicked out the Big Brother House, maybe they should give us a TV show.
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Postby furie » 28 Sep 2006, 10:12

Thanks Neil, but it's EAS that has done all the hard work so far.

The submission on Cyclone is awaiting a decision now, but the application was excellent, and if it doesn't happen, then it has nothing to do with the quality, effort or research done by EAS.

Touch wood indeed that Cyclone can get it's listing, and can then survive a counter attack from Plesh Ltd.

Bob, I know you are an expert in business, so I was surprised to see your very naive view of getting an operation like this off the ground.

I could put together a full business plan, and I could show that it could be profitable. However, you need to pay back your initial investment, and that wouldn't happen quickly.

To set this up would absolutely cost millions. The pay back on an investment would take many years. There are very few people willing to invest millions (in an unknown) and expect such a slow payback.

This isn't the Dragon's Den, with people asking for 50 grand to get their chip-shop off the ground. A chip shop would be one of dozens of essentially individual businesses runnig as part of the whole. Imagine the cost of setting up a single, small business, then multiplying it a hundred times. Even then I'm sure that you're underestimating the cost of running such a place. The plesh makes a couple of million a year profit on revenues of around £44 million pounds a year. Even a small museum costs hundreds of thousands a year to run. This idea is a mix of museum and park, so you'd soon find (especially after requiring investment to set it up as the development would need to be done pretty much from scratch) the first year costs would be in the millions, and returns in the thousands.

There's just no way anyone but those with a lot of money sitting around could invest in this kind of project. I love the idea, I loved Pleasureland, but I'm a realist and understand how impossible this is for your average Joe.

Oh, and my numbers didn't come up, sorry ;)
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Postby Jim Douglas Jr. » 28 Sep 2006, 19:34

It's too bad your own government doesn't see the long term potential in something like that.
Well run attractive parks are proven excellent long term investments.
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Postby Bob » 29 Sep 2006, 05:48

furie wrote:Thanks Neil, but it's EAS that has done all the hard work so far.

The submission on Cyclone is awaiting a decision now, but the application was excellent, and if it doesn't happen, then it has nothing to do with the quality, effort or research done by EAS.

Touch wood indeed that Cyclone can get it's listing, and can then survive a counter attack from Plesh Ltd.

Bob, I know you are an expert in business, so I was surprised to see your very naive view of getting an operation like this off the ground.

I could put together a full business plan, and I could show that it could be profitable. However, you need to pay back your initial investment, and that wouldn't happen quickly.

To set this up would absolutely cost millions. The pay back on an investment would take many years. There are very few people willing to invest millions (in an unknown) and expect such a slow payback.

This isn't the Dragon's Den, with people asking for 50 grand to get their chip-shop off the ground. A chip shop would be one of dozens of essentially individual businesses runnig as part of the whole. Imagine the cost of setting up a single, small business, then multiplying it a hundred times. Even then I'm sure that you're underestimating the cost of running such a place. The plesh makes a couple of million a year profit on revenues of around £44 million pounds a year. Even a small museum costs hundreds of thousands a year to run. This idea is a mix of museum and park, so you'd soon find (especially after requiring investment to set it up as the development would need to be done pretty much from scratch) the first year costs would be in the millions, and returns in the thousands.

There's just no way anyone but those with a lot of money sitting around could invest in this kind of project. I love the idea, I loved Pleasureland, but I'm a realist and understand how impossible this is for your average Joe.

Oh, and my numbers didn't come up, sorry ;)


I would love to see your business plan that shows it can be profitable. Even the basis figures such as Capital Investment, Running Costs, estimated annual attendences and spend per person would do. The ROI would be nice as well
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Postby furie » 29 Sep 2006, 10:43

Bob wrote:I would love to see your business plan that shows it can be profitable. Even the basis figures such as Capital Investment, Running Costs, estimated annual attendences and spend per person would do. The ROI would be nice as well


As would I, but as it's something that would never get anywhere near off the ground due to lack of initial investment, I'm not going to bother.

However, you just need to look at the popularity of Black Country Museum, Royal Armouries and Warwick Castle to see that historical, interactive tourist attractions are very popular and big money spinners. Of course, before looking at it seriously, you'd also have to look at what grants and aids are available for this ;)

Or did you think that I was on about setting up Pleasureland as an amusement park again, so you could come back with:

"The British seaside amusement park industry is dying. There are more closing next year and it's all completely finished"?
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Postby Neil » 29 Sep 2006, 11:45

I believe that Pleasureland would be viable as an amusement park, and since Bob will not tell us who he is, his eagerness to try and convince otherwise seems like a good indicator that Bob agrees. Otherwise he would be confident that no operators will come forward and would keep silent. The fact that Geoffrey Thompson planned to redevlop the zoo suggests he thought it could be a money spinner, and likewise if the seaside was dead it is surprising that someone wants to set up a waterpark.

In terms of capital investments this highlights the problem for operators. Before someone could buy it certain conditions have to be satisfied, and one is that a buyer would want to know what they would be buying. Currenly it is not clear whether they would be buying an amusement park of 14 acres of wasteland (and if we can't get stuff listed it could well be the latter). Trying to draw a businessplan would be like a teacher drawing up a lesson plan when they don't know whether they're to teach primary school kids of university students. Until the dust clears and people know where they stand it's hard to see anyone making an offer (but we can hope).
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Postby Bob » 29 Sep 2006, 17:07

Neil wrote:I believe that Pleasureland would be viable as an amusement park, and since Bob will not tell us who he is, his eagerness to try and convince otherwise seems like a good indicator that Bob agrees. Otherwise he would be confident that no operators will come forward and would keep silent. The fact that Geoffrey Thompson planned to redevlop the zoo suggests he thought it could be a money spinner, and likewise if the seaside was dead it is surprising that someone wants to set up a waterpark.

In terms of capital investments this highlights the problem for operators. Before someone could buy it certain conditions have to be satisfied, and one is that a buyer would want to know what they would be buying. Currenly it is not clear whether they would be buying an amusement park of 14 acres of wasteland (and if we can't get stuff listed it could well be the latter). Trying to draw a businessplan would be like a teacher drawing up a lesson plan when they don't know whether they're to teach primary school kids of university students. Until the dust clears and people know where they stand it's hard to see anyone making an offer (but we can hope).



There is a very simple anser to the above question. If you were a serious buyer then the books would be made available to you so you would be able to see what you were buying. It would in any case be a normal part of due dilegence.
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Postby EAS » 30 Sep 2006, 17:48

I have a grave suspicion that the River Caves may now be being destroyed to prevent alisting.

I gather that today the caves are unlocked and standing open..
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Postby furie » 30 Sep 2006, 22:48

EAS wrote:I have a grave suspicion that the River Caves may now be being destroyed to prevent alisting.

I gather that today the caves are unlocked and standing open..


Don't panic just yet EAS. I have a sneaking suspision that the Blackpool River Caves will be seeing a mysterious Dinosaur Retheme for 2007...

They spent £250,000 on the River Caves three years ago, a lot will have been on models for the displays. They'll be removing the new models to add in to Blackpool I suspect.

It will take them a little while at least to get out the "goodies", though they may move faster now they're not concentrating on the Cyclone.

Here's hoping...
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