Redevelopment- a Foregone Conclusion?

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Reading the "Latest News" page, I see that the following letter has appeared in the Thanet Gazette.

......................................................................................

Fun park consultation


No story exists around the next steps for Dreamland. There was nothing in my statement to BBC South East that isn't self-evidently true. Dreamland lies empty for nine to 10 months a year, contributing nothing to the local economy. The future for the site must be economic activity that is all year round whether that is an amusement park or some other use.

Cllr John Kirby has confirmed the council is carefully considering the details of the inspector's report and in January the full council will decide the way forward. Further public consultation will follow and we would welcome the opportunity to discuss the future with the Save Dreamland Campaign.

Neither Cllr Kirby or I are pre-empting the January decision, which will be fully reported.

Richard Samuel, Thanet council chief executive



......................................................................................

I suggest members read Nick's comments for themselves, but it seems very much to me as though TDC intend to ignore the Inspectors report.

Posting recently on this forum, Dreamland General Manager Barry Moss seemed to think that redevelopment was a foregone conclusion, and I wonder why TDC bothered to have a report prepared if this is the case. "The future for the site must be economic activity that is all year round" seems to be a thinly-veiled euphemism for "We are going to allow the developers to build a casino and/or supermarket"

Can anyone think of any reason why Thanet councillors would act in the way they are intending to act, or how one of Mr Godden's employees could know in advance what conclusions they are going to come to?

[Bob]

Reading the "Latest News" page, I see that the following letter has appeared in the Thanet Gazette.

......................................................................................

Fun park consultation


No story exists around the next steps for Dreamland. There was nothing in my statement to BBC South East that isn't self-evidently true. Dreamland lies empty for nine to 10 months a year, contributing nothing to the local economy. The future for the site must be economic activity that is all year round whether that is an amusement park or some other use.

Cllr John Kirby has confirmed the council is carefully considering the details of the inspector's report and in January the full council will decide the way forward. Further public consultation will follow and we would welcome the opportunity to discuss the future with the Save Dreamland Campaign.

Neither Cllr Kirby or I are pre-empting the January decision, which will be fully reported.

Richard Samuel, Thanet council chief executive



......................................................................................

I suggest members read Nick's comments for themselves, but it seems very much to me as though TDC intend to ignore the Inspectors report.

Posting recently on this forum, Dreamland General Manager Barry Moss seemed to think that redevelopment was a foregone conclusion, and I wonder why TDC bothered to have a report prepared if this is the case. "The future for the site must be economic activity that is all year round" seems to be a thinly-veiled euphemism for "We are going to allow the developers to build a casino and/or supermarket"

Can anyone think of any reason why Thanet councillors would act in the way they are intending to act, or how one of Mr Godden's employees could know in advance what conclusions they are going to come to?

I can assure you that nobody knows what Thanet councils final decision will be. Certain facts are known in that the site is not currently viable. The site will also need to be redeveloped. There are no known plans to build a supermarket on the site. The intentions are that there will be some retail development on the site in keeping with the needs of much of the site to remain an amusement facility. These retail outlets will compliment and strengthen the viability of Dreamland. The objective is to ensure that Dreamland is economically viable. This means making it more of a year round attraction rather then the current 3 month season. The clock cannot be turned back. The days of ten's of thousands of visitors descending on Margate each week have long gone. The days of hundreds of people queuing up to get into Dreamland have long gone. The days of Dreamland opening 10am to 10pm 7 days a week have long goneDreamland needs to be turned into an attraction to meet today’s needs and not yesterdays needs. Dreamland can be successful but not in its current form.

The costs of running an amsusement Park nowadays are high & visitor numbers are low. Even the Business rates are high particularly as the site is only used for a few months. There is a mass of Health & Safety legislation that has to be met to ensure the rides are safe and properly operated and endless other costs.

The redevelopment of the site will cost ten's of millions and that money will have to be recovered.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

But Dreamland was massively popular, and very profitable when the Bembom brothers, and latterly Jimmy Godden, made some effort to run it as an amusement park. That it might be more profitable as a supermarket or casino is neither here nor there.


There has been a deliberate effort to create a superficial air of decay and unprofitability in order to facilitate the sale of the site for use as a casino or supermarket- although this effort has not really fooled anybody.

Essentially, Mr Godden's plans involve increasing his own personal wealth and nothing more.

It is a nonsense to say that Dreamland is incapable of making a profit and attracting money into Thanet from outside- if this was the case then why would Philip Miller be prepared to take on the site and run it in the same way as he runs Adventure Island- as a year-round tourist attraction?

[Bob]

But Dreamland was massively popular, and very profitable when the Bembom brothers, and latterly Jimmy Godden, made some effort to run it as an amusement park. That it might be more profitable as a supermarket or casino is neither here nor there.


There has been a deliberate effort to create a superficial air of decay and unprofitability in order to facilitate the sale of the site for use as a casino or supermarket- although this effort has not really fooled anybody.

Essentially, Mr Godden's plans involve increasing his own personal wealth and nothing more.

It is a nonsense to say that Dreamland is incapable of making a profit and attracting money into Thanet from outside- if this was the case then why would Philip Miller be prepared to take on the site and run it in the same way as he runs Adventure Island- as a year-round tourist attraction?

I will put one simple question to you. Why did Benbom's pull out of Dreamland ?

JUst because something was profitable in the past does not mean also that it will be profitable today.

Butlins used to have a whole chain of very profitable holiday camps across the UK. They have none now although one or two are still trading under the Butlins named but are now owned by a different company. The UK holiday market has gone. If Dreamland is to survive it has to reinvent itself. It cannot survive in its 1960's format.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

My understanding is that Mr Godden offered the Bembom brothers a very favourable price for a 6 acre Margate amusement park, which they accepted.


This price, although favourable, was only a fraction of the price that Mr Godden has since obtained for a 6-acre brownfield site with outline planning permission for a supermarket and casino.


Soon after Mr Godden took over the site, he had all of the trees removed, and all of the grassed areas paved over. In hindsight, it's fairly obvious what his long-term plan was, even then. It is also fairly obvious that the only hinderence to development was the lack of road access from Marine Terrace.

Happily, Mr G's arcade subsequently burnt down, so there is now no such problem with access.


Barry, neither you nor Mr Godden are fooling anybody.

[dave771]

Bob I know the exact reasons why Henk left Dreamland but cant be bothered to go into those reasons with you as you seem to have an answer for everything and have no intention of listening to anything anyone has to say ! Anyway have better things to do with my christmas night than waste it on Bob/Barry, if its is Barry he talked crap when I worked at the park so now is no different ! Am off to have a few more drinks now I have finished work and I hope you all had a good one !

Dave

[Nick]

Butlins used to have a whole chain of very profitable holiday camps across the UK. They have none now although one or two are still trading under the Butlins named but are now owned by a different company. The UK holiday market has gone. If Dreamland is to survive it has to reinvent itself. It cannot survive in its 1960's format.

That is not correct. There are three Butlin's (not "one or two") and it is the same Butlin company that has always owned the holiday parks. The company has itself been under several different ownerships through the years, including Rank Group plc and now Bourne Leisure Ltd. But it is still Butlin's (although they have now lost the apostrophe from the name, so strictly speaking it is now "Butlins", not "Butlin's"!) Butlins have modernised and moved forward, which is exactly what Dreamland should do (and I am sure will do under the right ownership).

The fact that Dreamland didn't modernise under its most recent ownership is, as the Inspector said, a matter of management. Under a committed, forward-thinking owner, such as Philip Miller, Dreamland will almost certainly move into the 21st Century. Just like Adventure Island, Blackpool Pleasure Beach and many other successful seaside parks have done.

Nick

[Lou]

I believe that Dreamland will be returned to its former glory and we will go forward and have something to attract visitors and be proud of. A forward thinking management will invest not only their money but also their time and aspirations.
Why is it that retail 'development' sems to be so high on the agenda. God, theres only so much money people an spend on material possessions. What about spending money and having some fun! What about giving kids (and adults) some laughter and memories.
In response to 'Bob' we are only too aware that we can't go back in time to the 1960's, that is clear, but we can go forward. I'd rather see Margate as a place that daytrippers can travel too for a fun day out, than another retail 'development' that looks like every other retail 'development' in the country and sells exactly the same stuff.

[Bob]

I believe that Dreamland will be returned to its former glory and we will go forward and have something to attract visitors and be proud of. A forward thinking management will invest not only their money but also their time and aspirations.
Why is it that retail 'development' sems to be so high on the agenda. God, theres only so much money people an spend on material possessions. What about spending money and having some fun! What about giving kids (and adults) some laughter and memories.
In response to 'Bob' we are only too aware that we can't go back in time to the 1960's, that is clear, but we can go forward. I'd rather see Margate as a place that daytrippers can travel too for a fun day out, than another retail 'development' that looks like every other retail 'development' in the country and sells exactly the same stuff.

But what you are stating is that you want to go back in time. There is no significant Day Tripper market to Margate those days have long gone. Dreamland will have to rely primarily on the local area for its trade. The demographics of the area are not good. Pensioners are the largest group in the area they are not normally users of Amusement Parks. The site needs major investment. The level of investment that would be needed could not be recovered by using the whole site as an amusement park. A number of independent consultants have looked ar various options for using the whole site as an amusement park. None of these options indicated that it would be at all viable. All showed that the business would run at a very substantial loss.

Now I know thats not what people here want to hear but its the simple harsh economic reality. DReamland wil never reopen as a 100% Amusement Park. If you think it will you will be bitterly disappointented. You are far better off accepting what can be done and not trying for the impossible. Even running Dreamland as part retail & part amusement park is only just viable. If delays and additional costs are incurred by continual objections to the proposals its likely Dreamland will never reopen.

[David Ellis]

That seems to be a very biased and prejudiced view Bob.

Why cannot Dreamland be successful? Why can it ONLY survive by local trade and not pull-in visitors from outside the local area?

With the right management and investment the park is perfectly capable of pulling in day-tripper trade. I live a good 3 hours away but would certainly visit for the day if the park was operaring by someone who wanted it to be successful. There are plenty of examples of small parks that have pulled trade from outside their area with suitable business attitude and foresight.

You only have to look at little Oakwood Park in Pembrokeshire, Wales. It is miles from any large conurbations, pretty much as remote as you can get (unlike Margate which is close to London), yet 10 years ago it built ONE roller coaster that has put the park in the vocabulary of amusement park-goers worldwide. Since then Oakwood, which was a converted farm run by a family, has turned into a very successful business, continually installing new rides and attractions, and pulls visitors not only on a day-trip basis but brings overnight stays to the local economy. Dreamland can do this if Oakwood can!

All Dreamland needs is management with the will to make it successful. It is clear that Godden has no will to make Dreamland a successful amusement park, and no surprise that any of his business partners would share that blinkered view of the potential of the park!

David.

[David Ellis]

I am also angry with the comments from the Chief Executive, who is obviously basing his views on how the site has been managed over the last couple of years, and not what the park could be if run by someone with the right attitude and determination.

Should a non-resident like myself be writing a letter of complaint to the Chief Executive? How do others here feel?

David.

[Lou]

Bob wrote:
Now I know thats not what people here want to hear but its the simple harsh economic reality. DReamland wil never reopen as a 100% Amusement Park. If you think it will you will be bitterly disappointented. You are far better off accepting what can be done and not trying for the impossible. Even running Dreamland as part retail & part amusement park is only just viable. If delays and additional costs are incurred by continual objections to the proposals its likely Dreamland will never reopen.
I can't believe the above comment....I will not accept that anything is impossible, I know at times some people are unable to comprehend anything that does not fit into their own agenda, for whatever reason. I know that Dreamland will reopen, and can be economically viable, as a 100% Amusement Park. I have no doubt.

[Nick]

But what you are stating is that you want to go back in time. There is no significant Day Tripper market to Margate those days have long gone. Dreamland will have to rely primarily on the local area for its trade. The demographics of the area are not good. Pensioners are the largest group in the area they are not normally users of Amusement Parks. The site needs major investment. The level of investment that would be needed could not be recovered by using the whole site as an amusement park. A number of independent consultants have looked ar various options for using the whole site as an amusement park. None of these options indicated that it would be at all viable. All showed that the business would run at a very substantial loss.

Margate is still a major day visitor location. Even the new owners of Dreamland have acknowledged that, which is why they don't want the park to close until the redevelopment commences, otherwise they risk losing the existing trade. They have told me that themselves. (Although, sadly, I fear some of the town's visitors will have been lost through the uncertainty and through the appalling way the park was run last year).

Regarding the so-called "independent consultants" study. I have seen one which says exactly the opposite. It shows that a 100% park with significant investment will be viable.

And if the independent study you are referring to is the Tibbalds one (done as part of the Margate Masterplan), then you cannot really use this as evidence. It has been publicly discredited. If you remember, their research did not even reveal that any operators had an interest in the site. They openly admitted to us that they had missed that. They didn't even talk to the Save Dreamland Campaign as part of their 'consultation'!

Nick

[Sarah]

There's no significant day tripper market in Margate??! Really?

The vast majority of visitors to the Grotto are not from Thanet. Around half of our visitors are not even from Kent. They are day trippers, people on short breaks and families on longer holidays - we do still get holidaymakers here for a week or fortnight, although nobody is claiming they are our main market any more.

So the market has definitely changed but there most certainly is still a market in Margate and it's significant enough to keep this tourist attraction in business. The Grotto survives - nay thrives - because it is a well-run attraction with a committed owner who invests in it and its marketing (sorry to be so immodest, hate blowing my own trumpet but I do believe that we are living proof it can be done in Margate). And much as I love the Grotto, it really can't compete with Dreamland in terms of pulling power.

If I can turn this place around - and I came here with no experience of running a tourism business and just about enough cash to redecorate and buy some wine for the opening party - imagine what somone like Philip could do in Dreamland.

There are many, many reasons why Dreamland hasn't worked as well as it could in recent years. There isn't a single reason why it couldn't be successful in the future. THAT is the simple harsh economic reality.

Sarah

[ricardobugsy]

Given Dreamlands large size and its close proximity to London, there is no reason that it cannot be built up into a major attraction again.

Places such as Southends Adventure Island and Great Yarmouths Pleasure Beach pull in around 1.5 million visitors a year and there is no reason why Dreamland could not match those figures.

Build the attraction and the people will come. It already has a unique attraction in the UKs oldest rollercoaster, it just needs some major investment in rides and attractions and a good publicity campaign to relaunch the park.

It is not a matter of turning back any clocks. It is a simple fact of building a major attraction that people will be willing to travel to. There is virtually nothing now in the Kent area now the Rotunda has gone.
The last 10 years of Dreamland have seen it stripped of its assets (its rides and attractions).

Also Dreamland does not need another temporary tenant who can be thrown out at 1 months notice. Anyone who takes on those sort of terms must be a complete mug!