The Tom Thumb Theatre

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Not relevant to Dreamland I know, but we do often discuss other historic buildings around Margate, particularly those which might be under threat. We ought to take these buildings under our wing.

The Tom Thumb Theatre is currently for sale. It went dark three years ago. It is the second smallest theatre in the UK.










At the moment I'm renting a flat while I wait out the house price crash, but if The Tom Thumb Theatre is still for sale at the bottom of the correction I would love to buy it. It went on sale last February at £255,000, it is now down to £220,000 and I think it will bottom out sometime in 2010 at around £140,000, and then I could possibly afford to buy it.

The first floor is a flat (it was originally accommodation for grooms, the building was built in 1896 as a coaching house and the ground floor was a stable) which I would live in while I restored the auditorium itself. Although it doesn't really look to need much more than a good clean.




Then maybe put on performances in it (or more accurately let others put on performances in it- my interest is in history and architecture rather than the Performing Arts and I have always wanted to live somewhere that wasn't built as a house)


It was only converted into a theatre in 1984 and I wonder if anyone has photographs of it taken prior to this showing how it looked before conversion or when it was in less jaded appearance as The Tom Thumb Theatre?


Also, does anyone have any idea as to what a building society's position would be on lending on something like this? I don't mean at the moment, I mean in more normal times. By the time it gets to the price I think it will, I might be able to put down 30-40% as a deposit.


Any other info, directions to images other than contemporary ones or any other advice welcome. The important thing is that we don't let this building get knocked down so that somebody else builds yet more flats.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Just a brief update.


I visited Cooke & Co today and explained my circumstances, they were very positive and I have arranged a viewing of The Tom Thumb Theatre with a senior partner next week.

I spoke to my own bank, the Nationwide, but they were not prepared to offer a mortgage on that type of property although they would have been prepared to offer me the amount I want on a more normal house.

So then I found a mortgage broker on the net and I spoke to him on the phone today. He is sure he can get me a mortgage from a High Street bank for the amount I need at a sensible interest rate.

I also got a quote from a top-flight painter and decorator for the exterior restoration and this came in at less than £2000.

I have emailed Thanet District Council to ask about the rating status of The Tom Thumb Theatre- obviously I couldn't afford to pay both Council Tax and Business Rates- and I hope they will be sympathetic, given that I am trying to save the building.




I will update this post as and when things progress.

Vince.

[vince69619]

Hi Vince.

I missed your post on this the first time round, but now I have seen it, what an excellent project for you and an incredible thing for you to do.

I would love to be in sound or lighting for a theatre rather than an IT consultant, but I don't think it pays as well.

Vince.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

I am sick to death of every building of architectural or historic interest in Margate falling down, burning down, or being torn down so that someone else can build yet more crappy flats.


I am going to buy this building and I already have the Estate Agent and the Mortgage Broker on my side.


Then I am going to live there.

[Gary]

I am sick to death of every building of architectural or historic interest in Margate falling down, burning down, or being torn down so that someone else can build yet more crappy flats.


I am going to buy this building and I already have the Estate Agent and the Mortgage Broker on my side.


Then I am going to live there.

What a fantastic project / plan / lifestyle

Seriously, if I had the money this is the sort of thing I would love to do.

Please keep us all up to date via these boards and the very best of luck.

Gary

[EAS]

One company which will lend on more unusual properties (or wrecks) is the Ecological Building Soc.

The Theatres Trust might have more info available too.

http://www.theatrestrust.org.uk/


SAVE's Buildings at Risk section on the website:

http://www.savebritainsheritage.org/

It would make a wonderful puppet theatre - I have a friend currently building one! At the moment he is using gallery space, converted for performances, but a dedicated theatre is to be built.

http://www.up-front.com/puppet_theatre.html

http://www.up-front.com/puppet_show_det ... ?ShowID=15

http://www.puppeteersuk.com/news_news.asp?newsref=249

He may even come and do a season for you! He has a historic Punch and Judy collection too...

There are small details such are fire safety and performance licenses of course. Those are not insurmountable but may be expensive. It may be also that if you did want to run it as a theatre (apart from odd performances) a mortgage lender might only allow one at business rates.


(Warning - taking on a wreck/historic building can overtake your life and ruin your finances, but it's all worth it.)


A small word of advice - don't allow a building society general surveyor to do the survey. There are people who specialise in historic buildings who have more idea. It can save you from the damproofing and timber treatment cowboys in the long term.

Also - is this in the conservation area? If so, then demolition should not be an option... it certainly makes a 'positive contribution'!

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Thanks for the support and advice, there will be a lot of hoops to jump through I'm sure, but I will see what I can do.

I'm not really renowned for making logical decisions- in fact it is widely considered that I do not have any discernable trace of Common Sense- and everybody to whom I have said "I am hoping to spend every penny I've got and a shedload I haven't buying a semi-derelict theatre with Japanese and Alpine architectural influences" has said "Now, why doesn't that surprise me?"

The EA says that the accommodation is in poor condition but I am an HGV driver on long-haul continental work and have spent most of the last 22 years living in what is essentially an oversized corned-beef tin on wheels so my luxury expectations aren't too high!

I will let you know if there is any progress- the biggest question mark is whether TDC will want business rates which are very heavy, or whether they will view it purely as a residence and only apply standard Council Tax.

I'll post again next weekend after I have viewed it.

[EAS]

It will possibly depend on whether or not it is currently designated business or residential or both. If it's not currently residential there may be problems getting change of use, although it sounds as though it has been used as a residence in the recent past?

I've never lived in anything but 'historic ' wrecks which we couldn't actually afford, but somehow you find the cash bit by bit to do the essentials. You learn all about the joys of traditional buildings and materials and acquire many arcane skills along the way. You learn to do without the things some people consider essential - food, new cars, holidays...

Life would be very dull if none of us were barking mad eccentrics who loved historic buildings, structures and wooden coasters, amongst other things.

Plenty of advice on the Period Property UK website, from the SPAB, the Vic Soc, and other conservation organisations.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Thanks for the links first of all. I will check them out when I can but I am back in my corned-beef tin again tomorrow for the week- going to Macynlleth in Wales tomorrow I believe.


It was built as a coaching house but I understand that before it became the TTT it was a private residence and the downstairs was a double garage for the owner's cars. I have asked TDC what their view would be and I hope they will be sympathetic given what I am trying to do. I cannot afford to pay business rates.

The first house I ever owned, 13 Trinity Place, Ramsgate was in similar condition when I bought it- I bought it because the elderly lady who owned it had changed nothing for 40 years- it didn't even have central heating (and still didn't when I sold it 10 years later because I thought the radiators would look out of place).

I restored that and it was beautiful by the end. Incidentally, Mabel, who I bought it from was 86 years old, chain-smoked roll-ups and was selling it because she had decided to emigrate to America!

I cannot afford the asking price now but anticipate further falls in property prices and at some stage it will come onto my radar. I have been totally frank with the agent about what I want to do and what I can afford, which is £150,000, £160,000 absolute max and they haven't told me to go away and stop wasting their time yet.

If I did get it, I am aware that it would be a "money sink" but I just don't care, I don't live extravagantly (my car is 11 years old for example). One day I will be dead and I would like to be remembered for something when I am. And to have restored a theatre before I do.

Charlie and Sam are now 10 years old. Can you imagine what they think about it?

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

I would love to be in sound or lighting for a theatre rather than an IT consultant, but I don't think it pays as well.

If you did it for me, it wouldn't pay anything at all!

[Nick Evans]

Give my best wishes to the owner Sarah Parr-Byrne, if you happen to see her. Went out with her a couple of times in the early 1980s! She probably won't remember me in fact.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

If I meet her (which I would hope to) I will. Obviously I have read all about her and what she did and she is obviously barking mad so I am sure I would get along with her!


EDIT- I have now emailed Cooke & Co asking them to phone Sarah Parr-Byrne in the hope that she can be there for the viewing.

[DaveD]

Big pat on the back Vince - good for you for going through with this. Most of us spend our lives making plans that we are unlikely to follow through, you are living the dream and I applaud you for it.

If there were more people like you that care less about money and investment and more about history and the relevance of buildings such as this in our society, campaigns like ours would be few.

Well done. DD

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Just a quick update and this will be the final one for the time being at least.

I have now viewed the TTT and it would be suitable as a home for us and it is in better condition than I thought although it does need a lot of work. It really is a lovely building.

The problem is with it being viewed as a business premises. I have been provisionally offered a mortgage but only a commercial mortgage. The rate mentioned was 7.5% (this was before the BoE's announcement but was 1.75% above the figure I was working with, 5.75%, which I could get on a more normal property). The estate agent also told me that TDC would want business rates although I am still waiting for TDC's reply on this. This alone would be enough to make the idea unworkable.

At the moment, the stars are not favourable for me to go ahead. It is going to auction soon and all I can do now is to see if it sells, and if not then review my position as property prices and interest rates change.

I do believe that prices have far further to fall- no matter what the interest rate, banks simply do not have money to lend at the moment. All of our current economic difficulties have been caused by too-cheap credit and I do not believe they will be solved by making credit cheaper.

Thanks for the words of support and I hope to thread-necro this some time in the future.

[kevinashe]

would thanet not refer the rates back to a residential property and if in the future you wanted to convert part of the building to a busness/tourist attraction then change it.You would think that thanet would want the best for somebody to preserve the building rather than buy it and convert it into 3/4 flats