Margate Caves under threat

[erclairedoc]

Thanks Lou. I have a Margate Caves page on facebook which I am trying to keep up to date with developments. That picture is very sad Vince but useful for people to see. Unfortunately the buildings that were on site and are being demolished will not be replaced for now. The council are endeavouring to make the caves 'safe externally'. This raises many questions and when I know more , I will update the Facebook page.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Although the entrance buildings were not the most attractive, they did serve their purpose adequately. I believe the last operator was prepared to invest money to make improvements but could not obtain a lease of sufficient duration to make this viable.

TDC are planning to in-fill the caves and build houses on the site and while I agree there is an urgent need for new housing, this is probably the worst place imaginable to build housing for all sorts of reasons. This is what they are planning to build.



There is a public meeting at the Shell Grotto on Thursday, 27 January 2011 at 17:30, which I hope to be able to attend.

If you are on Facebook and have an interest in the Caves then I would suggest joining the Margate Caves group.

[erclairedoc]

The second building was removed this morning.

[Peet]

Having seen the pictures it astounds me that filling them in could ever be considered, how or why are they not under legal protection of any sort by English Heritage?

[Scotchie]

Some extracts from the public meeting - they are not being filled in, but being sealed up for the time being.

"the cost of the works without entering the caves, based
upon work undertaken in 2004/05, it is estimated that works would be in
the region of £100,000"

"In the interim, following our meeting, the necessary remedial works are
being carried out to make the caves safe externally, to seal the cave
access and remove the buildings adjacent to the cave entrance. This
work has become even more urgent because of the significant levels of
anti-social behaviour taking place and evidence that people have been
illegally entering the cave, potentially endangering their lives"

"Members of the Asset Strategy Group considered whether it was possible
to reopen the caves in their present form at their meeting on 13
December. Whilst the aspirations expressed at the meeting you attended
were appreciated, the council is not in a position to pursue such a
strategy in the present circumstances. The caves are a liability and the
council has no funding to support the necessary work to enable them to
be reopened. It is considered that the only viable option is to seal
the caves to ensure that, should circumstances change in the future, or
should an interested party come forward who wishes to take on the
responsibility, there is the potential to allow them to do so"

"I am sorry that the council is not able to be more pro-active in this
respect. However, we need to take a pragmatic view of the council’s
present situation. At present, we are simply not in a position to
financially support the re-opening of the caves in the short-term.
Please rest assured that, should this position change in the longer
term, there is still the potential for the caves to be reopened, if an
interested party wishes to take on the responsibility.
"

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

I understand the caves closed because of a chalk fall, does anyone know how serious this fall was, or what work would need to be done, other than removing the chalk, to make the caves safe?

[Lou]

Crazy! Why build there? What is that going to do to the caves? Seriously fed up with our heritage being thrown away for the sake of a few quid in someones pocket.

[erclairedoc]

The Caves were closed by the Health and Safety Executive following concerns regarding the structural integrity of the Caves. The Friends group meeting will discuss this in more detail and what needs to be done to move forward. I will report back on the Facebook page after the meeting.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

You read this sort of thing, and you just have to wonder what on earth is going on.

THE Turner Contemporary will receive at least £1 million in public money a year once it opens.

A trust is due to take over the running of the gallery from Kent County Council (KCC) on April 1, but it will receive a grant of more than £1 million a year to help cover the gallery’s estimated £2.6 million annual running costs.

The grant is in addition to the money already paid by KCC, the Arts Council and the South East Economic Development Agency (Seeda) to build the £17.5 million gallery by Margate’s harbour arm.

This does not include the cost of the earlier aborted project to build the Turner Centre in the sea which cost several million pounds.


Assuming the £17.5 million building cost was financed at interest of 5%, this gives a total running cost of around £3.5 million a year including interest repayments.

If admission is charged at £10, then the Turner Centre will need 350,000 visitors a year, or 1000 every single day of the year just to break even. In reality they will be lucky to have a few dozen visitors a day, if the experience of similar arts centres is anything to go by.

At the same time, we can't find the money to clear some fallen chalk from caves which have existed safely for at least 200 years.

[Jim Douglas Jr.]

You guys are there.
Someone HAS to start doing some research into what needs to be done to secure an operating permit/lease for the place.
This may eventually mean forming a partnership and borrowing money to build an attractive new entry and secure the caves, but you may be surprised to find that if you can convince someone they're viable, you may be able to secure a loan and a certain amount of public funding.

You as individuals have more power than you think. A group of you should be able to form a partnership and do this. With the loans resting on the partnership, if it fails, then you won't be held responsible as individuals and the bank writes it off as a loss.
Contractual provisions should limit their options to taking over operations of the venue in such a case.

You guys are THERE. I can't do this for you.

I can tell you this. Once Dreamland reopens, It could be quite a moneymaker. Joint advertising, etc.

[porterm]

I hope to be able to attend the meeting later this afternoon as I'm not currently working sadly. I unfortunately never got to visit the caves in the past and agree that they could represent another additional tourist offer.

I know the Lifeboat public house in Margate's Old Town are supporting a cause to reintroduce the caves along with the former museum to introduce a historic trail. This would surely benefit potential Turner Contemporary visitors to complement their cultural search, not forgetting the Shell Grotto of course in this visitor "trail".

Like Jim said in the last post, I believe joint advertising (like the former Shell Grotto posters posted outside the Dreamland park back in the 80s, and around the town attracted my attention to this attraction back then). I saw the old Only Fools snd Horses "Jolly Boys Outing" TV episode the other week again and noticed the former Shell Grotto poster on the public house wall that they drop in at on the way down to Margate. Brought the memories flooding back.

Martin

[Lou]

Sorry, can't make tonight, only wish I could!
Hope all goes well, we need to work together to protect our heritage, before it is lost forever.
Lou x

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

It was good to see so many people at the meeting tonight, it's clear that if Thanet District Council are going to attempt the usual stitch-up job that they are going to have a serious fight on their hands.

Thanks to everybody who made such intelligent points, I didn't say much because I was there to learn rather than teach.

I will keep up to speed with this, we need Margate Caves to re-open again.

[erclairedoc]

It was indeed a great meeting - very productive. Thanks to all those that attended. For those of you that weren't able to come along but would like to follow our progress and keep up to date with news, please join our Facebook page

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=317235923432

[porterm]

Hi all

I luckily managed to attend the packed meeting last night. It was good to hear so many people's enthusiasm for the continued existence of the caves. Personally I fear that possible action to avoid their loss may be at a rather late/advanced position at this time, however I think a community style opposition to the proposed redevelopment plans is well worth the fight. Otherwise as Tesco might say, "once it's gone, it's gone".

On the above tact, I just wondered if the following ITV promoted project funding promotion may be worth a try (the deadline if very soon though; 4 February 2011). The info is here; http://www.itv.com/jubileepeoplesmillions/

Assuming the Friends of Margate Caves meets the above scheme's remit it might be worth a shot I reckon. However, their promotion mentioned "new" projects so I'm not quite sure how this would fit in with us. I'm certainly prepared to put in an application if needed.

Martin