Dreamland (Thanet Times)

[vince69619]

Vince,

I know where you are comming from, but think you are setting the bar too low. The Scenic is the crown jewel, but this group is called the 'Save Dreamland Campaign'. It's not 'Save the Scenic and compromise on the rest of the park Campaign'.

If you agree with 40% they will knock you down to 20%, so hang out for 100% and let's see how much we can get!

Vince. (Talking to myself again??? )

[porterm]

Vince,

I fully support your stance on maintaining a complete revitalised Dreamland, on as large an area as possible. In the Bembom era on the right side of the Scenic as you entered the end of the "tunnel" were many grass areas as I recall, with just a few rides. Since Mr G took over that side of the park has had land "recaptured" up to the former boundary. There seems to be a somewhat current rather complex land ownership battle in the offing according to the Thanet News report, in view of Dreamland's future prospects.

Also, with the ever increasing fuel costs, I think that UK visitors could come back in higher volumes as, even I, as a regular traveller to the USA am now finding it a much more expensive venture. If our parks could compete with the US ones on a more even footing I believe that the past glory days for Dreamland, and many other UK parks, could return, even if in slightly smaller numbers than in their heydays. I for one will not be able to contemplate so many foreign trips if the current escalating fuel prices continue, especially if there is an economic downturn. Margate could once again have the last laugh, if only our weather performs properly. (Well, it feels almost like Spring now in October!) - roll on park season entensions.

I always refer to San Diego's regenerated Belmont Park and its historic 1925 built Giant Dipper coaster. That park had to eventually compromise to survive it seems, mixing a new retail base with bars etc. It seems to do very well, however the classic coaster can now no longer be seen in all its glory from the beach due to the new buildings behind it. Such is progress. I hope Dreamland does not have to compromise like Belmont but I would reluctantly vote for that option than risk losing the Scenic.

Martin

[Nick]

I have always resigned myself to the fact that there may have to be a compromise in order to save Dreamland. That was the basis of the original Local Plan policy. However, Philip Miller of Adventure Island has always maintained that he would prefer to operate the whole of Dreamland, not just part of it. Investment in the entire site as a major regional visitor attraction has got to be the best option for Margate. That is therefore what I will be fighting for, but at the same time being realistic about the land ownership situation.

[Bob]

Vince,

I know where you are comming from, but think you are setting the bar too low. The Scenic is the crown jewel, but this group is called the 'Save Dreamland Campaign'. It's not 'Save the Scenic and compromise on the rest of the park Campaign'.

If you agree with 40% they will knock you down to 20%, so hang out for 100% and let's see how much we can get!

Vince. (Talking to myself again??? )

40% is far to low it needs to be about 70% to be viable. A few rides packed into a small area would not attract visitors. It needs to be an atractive well laid out venue to do that.
There may be a few enthusiasts of the Scenic Railway here but it will not attract large numbers of visitors on it own

[Zoidstar]

"40 per cent of the land will be for leisure facilities"

What about the other 60% Housing or Retail if only 40% of the park dose surrive i'd hope that the rest is given over to retail as at least this will bring in much needed jobs a Super-Casino (Reginal casino) would also be nice as this would also create jobs and new hotel Confrence facilitys

A 40% size theme park would be more or less the same size as Peter Pans (Adventure Island) at Southend would'nt it look at what Mr Miller has done there with a lack of space.


"All I can say is there will be a major leisure attraction there"

My bet is a Reginal Casino Southend has more or less turned one down on the foreshore with a 100ft observation tower...

[Bob]

"40 per cent of the land will be for leisure facilities"

What about the other 60% Housing or Retail if only 40% of the park dose surrive i'd hope that the rest is given over to retail as at least this will bring in much needed jobs a Super-Casino (Reginal casino) would also be nice as this would also create jobs and new hotel Confrence facilitys

A 40% size theme park would be more or less the same size as Peter Pans (Adventure Island) at Southend would'nt it look at what Mr Miller has done there with a lack of space.


"All I can say is there will be a major leisure attraction there"

My bet is a Reginal Casino Southend has more or less turned one down on the foreshore with a 100ft observation tower...

Retail is in decline. Margate town centre has more then adequate retail facilities it certainly does not need anymore. All the trends show town centre shopping declining. This is only likely to continue with more people choosing to shop on line. A super casino is not likely to do much for Margate neither. Dreamland is about leasure not hard Gambling. The market for Conference centres is also over provided and the Dreamland site is not really suitable for one.

[Zoidstar]

How about a giant statue of Tony & Cherie Blair you could enter in the foot and have look out platforms at strategically located possitions
the top one would be in the eyes.

on second thoughts that would stop people from going to Margate!

[Lou]

Well, I think that we should go for the whole site as Dreamland. Lets face it once its built on, thats it. We can't get it back. Every spare bit of land in Thanet is being developed - lets just have Dreamland properly done and dusted - I know the Scenic is important, but so where all the other fantastice rides like the River Caves, Mary Rose, Orbitor, Paratrooper etc etc.
I don't think we should just agree to a little slice of land, why should we???
Look whats happened recently through public opinion. The seafront lights have been removed and we have our roundabout back, and guess what no queues-perhaps that just goes to show the public does know what will be best for all concerned (hey, we've gone full circle and the result is a positive one) Lets hope we go full circle with Dreamland and restore it to its former glory and beyond

[Bob]

Well, I think that we should go for the whole site as Dreamland. Lets face it once its built on, thats it. We can't get it back. Every spare bit of land in Thanet is being developed - lets just have Dreamland properly done and dusted - I know the Scenic is important, but so where all the other fantastice rides like the River Caves, Mary Rose, Orbitor, Paratrooper etc etc.
I don't think we should just agree to a little slice of land, why should we???
Look whats happened recently through public opinion. The seafront lights have been removed and we have our roundabout back, and guess what no queues-perhaps that just goes to show the public does know what will be best for all concerned (hey, we've gone full circle and the result is a positive one) Lets hope we go full circle with Dreamland and restore it to its former glory and beyond

I don't think a 10% is realistic. There will have to be an element of compromise. Somewhere around 25% to 30% of the site given over to other uses would in my view be acceptable. People no longer holiday in the UK. Dreamland needs to target days & shortbreak visitors. The whole of Margate town centre though needs to get its act together. The run down and dirty state of the town and its lack of entertainment facilities will not bring people in. It can be done though with a lot of commitment. Shopping Centres will not bring visitors in or generate more revenue they at most will change peoples shopping habbits most likely leading to small shops closing down,
Visitors will bring in new spending. Each visitor might well spend £50 odd on a day trip and perhaps £150 to £200 on a weekend trip

[vince69619]

Whilst I agree that at some point a compromise might need to be made, it is self defeating to start off by talking compromise. In any negociation you start off fighting tooth and nail for what you want. When (and if) that fails, then start negociating.

As I have said before, the more you take away from Dreamland, the less likely visitors are to come back again. £50 for a day tripper, yes, but make Dreamland the attraction it was, and you will get another £50 6-12 months later. Offer them too little and that single £50 will be the last one.

Vince.

[porterm]

I fully agree Vince. I think it is somewhat self-defeating to talk about any forms of compromise when there is a strategic plan to regenerate the Dreamland park.

Just by contrast, in case anyone's interested, another USA park, Six Flags Astroworld in Houston is due to close for good at the end of this month. Ironically it seems over yet another land value issue. Its owners are somewhat debt-ridden and claim it is an under-performing park in their 30 strong group. I just wonder if any saviour campaign will be implemented there, although this is probably a big corporate decision. Sad for the locals though I think. I guess it's a sign of the times.

This begs me to envisage a time in the future maybe when amusement park land could ever out-value the price of housing or commercial property building land. If I were to ever demolish my house and build a roller coaster on site it would surely generate more visits than in its current standing. (Just a rather cynical comparison) - sorry it's 0137 and I'm on my penultimate ever nightshift, thank God.

Martin

[Bob]

I fully agree Vince. I think it is somewhat self-defeating to talk about any forms of compromise when there is a strategic plan to regenerate the Dreamland park.

Just by contrast, in case anyone's interested, another USA park, Six Flags Astroworld in Houston is due to close for good at the end of this month. Ironically it seems over yet another land value issue. Its owners are somewhat debt-ridden and claim it is an under-performing park in their 30 strong group. I just wonder if any saviour campaign will be implemented there, although this is probably a big corporate decision. Sad for the locals though I think. I guess it's a sign of the times.

This begs me to envisage a time in the future maybe when amusement park land could ever out-value the price of housing or commercial property building land. If I were to ever demolish my house and build a roller coaster on site it would surely generate more visits than in its current standing. (Just a rather cynical comparison) - sorry it's 0137 and I'm on my penultimate ever nightshift, thank God.

Martin

There is a skill to negotiating and to go in with a totally unrealistic starting point is not a good tactic. A 100% is not a good starting point.

One also has to take into account Margate has seen the number of visitors & holiday makers plummet. The length of the season has also much reduced.. One neds to try to make the facility multi purpose and have facilities that both visitors and locals might use particular off season.

[vince69619]

Obviously I don't know the geography of everyone on the forum, but for me Margate is a two hour plus trek in each direction, I consider myself as the sort of tourist that can make or break Margate.

I am not a spotty teenager (not that I am trying to upset any spotty teenagers) and I don't have any children.

When I was a teenager (spotty or not) I used to travel to Margate from Southend and would have made at least two trips a year. It was Dreamland that made me go. We would eat on the seafront and enjoy the day. The sea was not even a factor, I lived in Southend, we had enough sea already.

20 years later, I am still in the market for a good theme park when I go somewhere. The seaside does not do much for me, and if that's what I wanted Margate is not the nearest bit of coast. What would make me visit Margate is a good theme park. The first white knuckle ride I was brave enough to get on was the Looping Star, and my support for the park that gave me that ride is still there. Put up a theme park and I will visit to see what it's like. Put up a big and impressive theme park, and I will come back!

Last year I made the trip to Margate to see Dreamland for myself. It was sad and sorry. This year I didn't go, because I got the impression it was worse than the year before. This is the reason that Margate is in decline from the tourist perspective. You have to attract visitors. Most of the seaside resorts can do sand, sea and shops. There are only a handfull that offer a theme park. Most offer a few rides.

If Margate want my cash, a few rides isn't going to cut it. I have to drive past Thorpe Park and Chessington to get to Margate!

Vince.

[dave771]

Again Bob is putting a downer on everything ! the main reason that visitor numbers are dropping rapidly is due to Dreamland being run the way it is on a year to year basis, if Bob took the time to go back through all the figures and information that the campaign has put on this site he may understand whats been going on but like most people who think they know whats best he probably hasnt bothered going into anything on this site! Now I have thrown my toys out of my pram I am off to bed !

[vince69619]

I hope the Inspector's report blows them out of the water and says the existing space designated as Dreamland stays as an amusement park, and nothing else.

Vince.

Hey what a prediction - who is this guy he's good!

So where does it go from here, they have three options that I can see.

1) Leave the site empty.
2) Put Dreamland back together and run it themselves.
3) Sell the land to someone like Phillip Miller.

Option 1 - I cannot see happening. Jimmy only has a 40% share in the company now, and the real businessmen are going to want to see some return on investment, rather than just be happy that the toys are out of the pram. There cannot be any development without Option 2 happening, so I don't think Option 1 is on the cards.

Option 2 - They have made such a big noise saying how this is not an option, so do they climb down and eat the humble pie, I doubt it! Can you imagine the press having a good time 'Businessman re-opens park he said was not viable!'.

Option 3 - Take the money you can get and run. I think so.

Anyone else have a theory?

Vince.