Redevelopment- a Foregone Conclusion?

[AJ]

Does this man's ignorance know no bounds? I'm beginning to think he's too stupid for even Godden to employ

........nice one Sarah!!!

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Certainly I would not necessarily disagree with Bob's view that Dreamland should cater more for families, rather than being a "white-knuckle" type park

It is true that Margate has been allowed to become somewhat run-down, and as well as campaigning for the investment which the park needs, we should also be campaigning for the whole East Kent area to be given assistance to regenerate, as has happened in North Wales for example.

As for the statement that Dreamland may have to diversify, then that to me would depend entirely on what is proposed. To allow one acre to be developed as a sea-life centre is a lot different to allowing five acres to be developed as a supermarket.

I really would welcome some specific details of what the development company have in mind and I'm sure everyone else would too.

[David Ellis]

Thorpe Park has Exhibitions & Corporate days it also as a Hotel and good Dining facilities

Thorpe Park doesn't have a hotel, neither does the other London park in the same group, Chessington. I wouldn't class the dining facilities as anything out of the ordinary...Thorpe has the main High Street chains (McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut) plus a BBQ. Nothing unusually superb there!

David.

[Bob]

There's no significant day tripper market in Margate??! Really?

The vast majority of visitors to the Grotto are not from Thanet. Around half of our visitors are not even from Kent. They are day trippers, people on short breaks and families on longer holidays - we do still get holidaymakers here for a week or fortnight, although nobody is claiming they are our main market any more.

So the market has definitely changed but there most certainly is still a market in Margate and it's significant enough to keep this tourist attraction in business. The Grotto survives - nay thrives - because it is a well-run attraction with a committed owner who invests in it and its marketing (sorry to be so immodest, hate blowing my own trumpet but I do believe that we are living proof it can be done in Margate). And much as I love the Grotto, it really can't compete with Dreamland in terms of pulling power.

If I can turn this place around - and I came here with no experience of running a tourism business and just about enough cash to redecorate and buy some wine for the opening party - imagine what somone like Philip could do in Dreamland.

There are many, many reasons why Dreamland hasn't worked as well as it could in recent years. There isn't a single reason why it couldn't be successful in the future. THAT is the simple harsh economic reality.

Sarah

The Shell Groto is a very different business to Dreamland. I am sure that Margate attracts sufficient visitors to keep the Groto open. I suspect as few as 30 a day would be sufficient. Dreamland needs a figure dramatically larger then that. I suspect you have never read the tourist figures for the last 10 years for Margate nor have you looked at what the avarage age profile is. Do you know what the average spend of a tourist in Margate is do you even know how long they stay on average ? Do you know the SO group breakdown. Do you know what the trend is for the next 5 years ?

[marky.com]

Bob,

You're sounding like a broken record. You keep spouting out the same tired old 'facts' post after post, with absolutely no acknowledgement of of the actual point that others are making.

1) Regarding the Tourist figures for Margate over the last ten years, these are naturally going to show a huge decline - a decline that runs parallel with the awful management and decline of Dreamland. The trend for the next five years will invariably be based on the current embarrassment that is Dreamland and not on the figures that would be achiveable if the park was run as it deserves to be.

2) Thorpe Park does not have a hotel.

3) You are certainly correct when you say Margate is not a very attractive resort for visitors. This is due to the awful management and decline of Dreamland, which has stopped people visiting, as it now a depressing and run down place to visit.

4) The way forward does not HAVE to be a scaled back operation. That is what you have either been drip fed for so long that you can no longer think objectively, or a narrow and stubborn viewpoint - one that you have failed on every level to back up with even the remotest shred of objective evidence.

5) The mega rides at the likes of Thorpe Park can actually cost a great deal more than £5m.

6) Dreamland does not need to target the 8 to 13 age group. It needs to target families and groups of all ages, with varied attractions attractions that suit all.

7) Thank you for telling us that Dreamland can only succeed if the income exceeds the costs, anyone knows that. The point you seem to be missing is that for Dremland to succeed it needs to, like other parks, be taken as a long term term investment. It will take time to get the visitors back and for the wealth and certainty they bring to create the knock on effects that will improve the rest of the town. It's is not about bringing in the cheapest rides to keep costs down, it's about creating something of quality that will attract the numbers required to make a profit IN THE LONG TERM. Take a visit to Adventure Island if you need to see this demonstrated in reality.

8 ) You keep referring to the shortness of the season. This is a self-created constraint imposed by the owner. The season is actually 52 weeks of the year, with a peak season from the Easter Holidays to the end of August. Again, take a look at Adventure Island if you wish to see how this works.

9) Seaside visitors have dropped, but not everywhere. Naturally, people are not going to be attracted to run down, depressing and attraction-free resorts. If you think that a shopping centre will help, then you really do have a screw loose. I live in London and currently have more shops within fifteen minutes journey time than I dare to dream of. As does the vast majority of the south-east.

It's plain obvious to me (and I'm sure many others) what has deliberately been done to Dreamland and Margate as a whole during recent years. If you want your argument to hold any value - at least accept that SOME of the damamge to Margate you keep quoting has been caused by the appalling and in my view, deliberately destructive management of Dreamland.

[Bob]

Bob,

You're sounding like a broken record. You keep spouting out the same tired old 'facts' post after post, with absolutely no acknowledgement of of the actual point that others are making.

1) Regarding the Tourist figures for Margate over the last ten years, these are naturally going to show a huge decline - a decline that runs parallel with the awful management and decline of Dreamland. The trend for the next five years will invariably be based on the current embarrassment that is Dreamland and not on the figures that would be achiveable if the park was run as it deserves to be.

2) Thorpe Park does not have a hotel.

3) You are certainly correct when you say Margate is not a very attractive resort for visitors. This is due to the awful management and decline of Dreamland, which has stopped people visiting, as it now a depressing and run down place to visit.

4) The way forward does not HAVE to be a scaled back operation. That is what you have either been drip fed for so long that you can no longer think objectively, or a narrow and stubborn viewpoint - one that you have failed on every level to back up with even the remotest shred of objective evidence.

5) The mega rides at the likes of Thorpe Park can actually cost a great deal more than £5m.

6) Dreamland does not need to target the 8 to 13 age group. It needs to target families and groups of all ages, with varied attractions attractions that suit all.

7) Thank you for telling us that Dreamland can only succeed if the income exceeds the costs, anyone knows that. The point you seem to be missing is that for Dremland to succeed it needs to, like other parks, be taken as a long term term investment. It will take time to get the visitors back and for the wealth and certainty they bring to create the knock on effects that will improve the rest of the town. It's is not about bringing in the cheapest rides to keep costs down, it's about creating something of quality that will attract the numbers required to make a profit IN THE LONG TERM. Take a visit to Adventure Island if you need to see this demonstrated in reality.

8 ) You keep referring to the shortness of the season. This is a self-created constraint imposed by the owner. The season is actually 52 weeks of the year, with a peak season from the Easter Holidays to the end of August. Again, take a look at Adventure Island if you wish to see how this works.

9) Seaside visitors have dropped, but not everywhere. Naturally, people are not going to be attracted to run down, depressing and attraction-free resorts. If you think that a shopping centre will help, then you really do have a screw loose. I live in London and currently have more shops within fifteen minutes journey time than I dare to dream of. As does the vast majority of the south-east.

It's plain obvious to me (and I'm sure many others) what has deliberately been done to Dreamland and Margate as a whole during recent years. If you want your argument to hold any value - at least accept that SOME of the damage to Margate you keep quoting has been caused by the appalling and in my view, deliberately destructive management of Dreamland.

I think you are living in the past. UK Holidays have been declining for the past 40 years. This is a fact. It applies across the UK not just to Margate.
Margate is not Dreamland to try to put the blame for the poor state of the town on Dreamland is wrong.

The poor state of the Town Centre and the lack of any other tourists facilties does not help. To the average visitor Margate is a run down town with many boarded up shops and next to nothing for visitors to do. The UK holiday season is very short. It is pointless opening all year when there are no visitors. The cost of opening Dreamland for a single day are very high. Dreamland will never reopen in its past format. There is no chance at all of that. The Dreamland site is far to small to compete against theme parks and does not intend to do so. It will in future target the young family market with children in the age range 8 to 13. It will also diversify into other areas. It will not be entering the White Knuckle ride arena.

[marky.com]

I think you are living in the past. UK Holidays have been declining for the past 40 years. This is a fact. It applies across the UK not just to Margate.
Margate is not Dreamland to try to put the blame for the poor state of the town on Dreamland is wrong.

The poor state of the Town Centre and the lack of any other tourists facilties does not help. To the average visitor Margate is a run down town with many boarded up shops and next to nothing for visitors to do. The UK holiday season is very short. It is pointless opening all year when there are no visitors. The cost of opening Dreamland for a single day are very high. Dreamland will never reopen in its past format. There is no chance at all of that. The Dreamland site is far to small to compete against theme parks and does not intend to do so. It will in future target the young family market with children in the age range 8 to 13. It will also diversify into other areas. It will not be entering the White Knuckle ride arena.

With all due respect Bob, I'm certainly not living in the past. Some of my above comments might refer to the past, but my focus is very much on the present and the future.

Yet again, you've missed the point entirely and have played the only hand that you have for the umpteenth time.

One word.

Adventure Island.

Except that's two!

It doesn't compete with Theme Parks, it complements them. Theme Park's don't have the luxury of a seaside location and miles of golden sands. If anything Dreamland would be competing with the likes of Adventure Island, not Thorpe Park or Chessington. People also do like to visit more than one amusement park and/or resort too...

Come on, loosen those heels from the ground a little!

[Bob]

I think you are living in the past. UK Holidays have been declining for the past 40 years. This is a fact. It applies across the UK not just to Margate.
Margate is not Dreamland to try to put the blame for the poor state of the town on Dreamland is wrong.

The poor state of the Town Centre and the lack of any other tourists facilties does not help. To the average visitor Margate is a run down town with many boarded up shops and next to nothing for visitors to do. The UK holiday season is very short. It is pointless opening all year when there are no visitors. The cost of opening Dreamland for a single day are very high. Dreamland will never reopen in its past format. There is no chance at all of that. The Dreamland site is far to small to compete against theme parks and does not intend to do so. It will in future target the young family market with children in the age range 8 to 13. It will also diversify into other areas. It will not be entering the White Knuckle ride arena.

With all due respect Bob, I'm certainly not living in the past. Some of my above comments might refer to the past, but my focus is very much on the present and the future.

Yet again, you've missed the point entirely and have played the only hand that you have for the umpteenth time.

One word.

Adventure Island.

Except that's two!

It doesn't compete with Theme Parks, it complements them. Theme Park's don't have the luxury of a seaside location and miles of golden sands. If anything Dreamland would be competing with the likes of Adventure Island, not Thorpe Park or Chessington. People also do like to visit more than one amusement park and/or resort too...

Come on, loosen those heels from the ground a little!

I realize that the new Dreamland may not be to the liking of many people here but the new strategy for Dreamland is sound and will create a Dreamland that is an asset to the town and will be financially sound and will provide year round employment rather then just seasonal employment
It will be firmly focused on catering for the younger age group market. It will also be on a smaller scale occupying about 50% of the current site. The market has changed. Dreamland has to change in the process of that change some of its currrent customer base may be lost but a lot more new customers will be gained. Change has to come and will be coming to Dreamland. It also needs the support of the Council & Businesses in Margate who need to do their bit to turn Margate around by smartening up the Town Centre and providing more facilities for tourists. What is available at present is sub standard and will not bring tourists in. Margate needs to look at what other towns have to offer at present Margate cannot compete with them.

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

But could you expand on what the new strategy actually involves?

[Lou]

I've commented on this before, but why should we accept anything less than 100 per cent of the available land. How are people going to be attracted to such a small enterprise.
Lets just argue for the who area to be designated to Dreamland. We have enough shopping and housing provision. I don't accept that we should agree to anything less.

[vince69619]

There is one thing about Barry's stance that makes me want to laugh out so loud.

Jimmy and Barry don't want to run an amusement (or theme) park, so the current suggested 50% is quite a back track, because they want to develop the site, or sell the whole thing at development prices, so I guess Barry is finding it hard to talk about details as there is so much humble pie to eat.

Let's see how much more humble pie they can manage hey?

Vince.

[Bob]

There is one thing about Barry's stance that makes me want to laugh out so loud.

Jimmy and Barry don't want to run an amusement (or theme) park, so the current suggested 50% is quite a back track, because they want to develop the site, or sell the whole thing at development prices, so I guess Barry is finding it hard to talk about details as there is so much humble pie to eat.

Let's see how much more humble pie they can manage hey?

Vince.

The plans for the new Dreamland are moving forward. We will be begining site clearance later this year with the retail development being completed fiest followed by the New Dreamland Development.

[Susan]

I note you use the terminology 'we' so clearly you are the right person to point us in the right direction of the plans so that they can be viewed and also give us details of the planning permissions you have to do this work.

As you will know from other areas of this site we already have details of the Listed Building Applications but these have not yet been considered or approvals given.

The company, on the release of the Inspector's Report, gave an assurance there would be full consultation so perhaps you could post full details now.

[Bob]

I note you use the terminology 'we' so clearly you are the right person to point us in the right direction of the plans so that they can be viewed and also give us details of the planning permissions you have to do this work.

As you will know from other areas of this site we already have details of the Listed Building Applications but these have not yet been considered or approvals given.

The company, on the release of the Inspector's Report, gave an assurance there would be full consultation so perhaps you could post full details now.

Ouline Planning Consent is being applied for.

[Susan]

Thank you for your clear response Bob.

I quote below the coverage at the time, as it is now 'next year' and the plans presumably are ready, if you are to apply for outline consent, when can we expect to have the consultation?


"Property firm Waterbridge, which bought the Dreamland site earlier this year, says it will ask people what should be done with it. Chairman Toby Hunter said he was determined to create "a world class leisure destination" if people were prepared to move away from the parks "slot machine" image. Mr Hunter said a public consultation on the site's future will be held next year."