Listed Building Applications Submitted

[Sarah]

The two places you mention are totally and completly different to Margate. Southend is a a much larger town with a population of nearly 200,000 and has within a catchment area of a 30 minute journey a population of about 3,000,000. It also has a much younger age profile them Margate. It is mainly a Business & Commutor Town.

Even when Bob sounds like he is speaking with authority, he's actually talking complete balderdash.

Southend Borough Council (which emcompasses numerous neighbouring towns) has a population of 160,256 people according to the 2001 Census.

Defining the population by their age, all age groups are below the national average, except for the over 65s (who make up 19.18% of Southend's population, compared to a national average of 15.89%).

Income in Southend is medium according to the 2004 Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings. In September of 2005, they had a claimant count (the number of people claiming benefits) of 301, compared to a national average of 75.

In short, the demographics of Southend are not dissimilar to Margate.

I don't know who's feeding you your 'facts' Bob, but I'd sack them if I were you.

Sarah

[Bob]

The two places you mention are totally and completly different to Margate. Southend is a a much larger town with a population of nearly 200,000 and has within a catchment area of a 30 minute journey a population of about 3,000,000. It also has a much younger age profile them Margate. It is mainly a Business & Commutor Town.

Even when Bob sounds like he is speaking with authority, he's actually talking complete balderdash.

Southend Borough Council (which emcompasses numerous neighbouring towns) has a population of 160,256 people according to the 2001 Census.

Thats the 2001 figure. Its over 5 years old

Defining the population by their age, all age groups are below the national average, except for the over 65s (who make up 19.18% of Southend's population, compared to a national average of 15.89%).

Try comparing that with Margate

Income in Southend is medium according to the 2004 Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings. In September of 2005, they had a claimant count (the number of people claiming benefits) of 301, compared to a national average of 75.

Look at the average Income for Margate.

The Claiment count is meaningless without being expressed as a percentage. Of course Southends figure will be higher its the UK's ffth largest urban area.

In short, the demographics of Southend are not dissimilar to Margate.

I don't know who's feeding you your 'facts' Bob, but I'd sack them if I were you.

Sarah

[Susan]

Come on Bob your dismissive answer to Southport's success does you no credit. I am not convinced being close to Blackpool, probably the most successful holiday town is going to make Southport a success. Yes there are large towns nearby but they too can all very easily go to Blackpool.

Southport, as a destination, died for families in the north west, the only thing to commend it was the annual flower show and the slightly expensive shopping on Lord Street. These appealed to people of a certain vintage, the over 55s you often talk about.

The Amusement Park was upgraded, improved and made attractive the area was back to having a choice between Southport and Blackpool for those fun days out and more and more are choosing Southport. The town is on the up, becoming bright and attractive.

There is absolutely no reason why Margate cannot do a similar thing. Their big advantage is there is no competition in the area.

If you want the complete the north west trio why not look at Morecambe, it is a run down mess what happened ..... they closed the Amusement Park and looked to redevelop, it failed as nobody wanted to come; there is adequate provision already plenty of out of town shopping. Now they have nothing no tourists and no shoppers and a derelict site .... sound familiar!!!

[jmace9]

Ok Bob you keep putting out this challenge, despite replies, lets get down to the core of the problem.

Is this site, an amusement park site, available for sale at an appropriate price calculated by valuation professionals in the field at a market price for an amusement park?

This is the whole issue and a short, straight, answer would be appreciated.

Bob please answer the question !!!

John

[taffy]

Has Bob answered Stephen's question yet?

He said in earlier essay and was, for once, correct in suggesting that Dreamland is not viable in its current state. Well I never, whose fault is that then? Come on Bob. Why not sell it for what its worth as a theme park to someone who can run it as a successful venture and show us how its done.

I could run a business into the ground, strip it of all its assets and then announce that it can't work. I could refuse to invest and advertise; I could then say people aren't coming to use my business and never will again. It's not rocket science is it. Change the record and tell us something we don't know Robert.

I look forward to your answer to Stephen's question as do we all.

[Scotchie]

As a newbie to this forum, I'm sure what I am saying has been mentioned many a time before....

As far as I am concerned the demise started when the Big Wheel was demolished (1996? when JG took over in 1995?). I visited on a number of occasions just to see my house from up there !! The major focal point was lost when it was dismantled. Couldn't it be repurchased for the site eventually if it is still unused ?

It was not that long ago that on our way out to see family on bank holidays that we used to pass the queues into Thanet as far away as Herne Bay. What with the high speed trains and easier road access visitors are a lot more likely to visit the 'new Dreamland'...

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

Hello Scotchie, welcome to the forum.

The big wheel ended up in Mexico, although it was never rebuilt, for whatever reason. Dismantling it took a lot longer than anticipated due to unforeseen circumstances- I presume it was not in as good a condition as originally thought.

Looking back, the removal of the larger permanent rides, and the trees which gave Dreamland its "park" atmosphere tends to indicate that the owner had plans to re-develop the site even then.

To anyone interested, I understand that the site has a financial value of £3 million if sold as an amusement park, and around £20 million if permission can be gained for redevelopment, although I am sure that Barry Moss ("Bob") will correct me if I am wrong here.

Vince

[Scotchie]

Looking back, the removal of the larger permanent rides, and the trees which gave Dreamland its "park" atmosphere tends to indicate that the owner had plans to re-develop the site even then.

Vince

Just list the sites and see if they were purchased for the long term benefit of their sites:-

Dreamland - Downsized and put up for development
Pleasurama - Burnt down and put up for development
Rotunda etc - Downsized and put up for development
Grand Hotel - Fires/Demolished and put up for development
Mr B's - Burnt down and to be developed as park of Dreamland (?)
Bench Street Dover - closed down/demolish and now for sale

[Bob]

There seems to be some misunderstandings on here, yes it is possible to demolish listed buildings but only in certain, quite special, circumstances. Read Nick's information. It certainly doesn't look as if the reasons for wanting to demolish the Dreamland buildings meet the criteria and it needs saying.

The important thing is that everybody who cares about Dreamland does something about it. If you cant handle the on-line response system write a letter to the Thanet District Council Planning Department. You dont have to live in Thanet to do something, listed buildings are important beyond their local area.

I think most of you are confused as to the Status of the Buildings that the request has gone into for Demolishing them. These Buildings are not Listed and do not have the same protection as that of a Listed Building. They do have some protection in that permision is required to demolish them as they are within the curtlidge of a Listed Building.

[dave771]

Well Bob, time will tell what the decisions are and however much rubbish comes out of your mouth you do not make these decisions, instead of talking constantly about things you do not know why do you not just wait and see like everyone else has to !

[jmace9]

There seems to be some misunderstandings on here, yes it is possible to demolish listed buildings but only in certain, quite special, circumstances. Read Nick's information. It certainly doesn't look as if the reasons for wanting to demolish the Dreamland buildings meet the criteria and it needs saying.

The important thing is that everybody who cares about Dreamland does something about it. If you cant handle the on-line response system write a letter to the Thanet District Council Planning Department. You dont have to live in Thanet to do something, listed buildings are important beyond their local area.

I think most of you are confused as to the Status of the Buildings that the request has gone into for Demolishing them. These Buildings are not Listed and do not have the same protection as that of a Listed Building. They do have some protection in that permision is required to demolish them as they are within the curtlidge of a Listed Building.

Welocme back Bob !!

Perhaps you would care to answer Stephens question now or at least comment on it instead of ignoring it.

John

[jmace9]

Ok Bob you keep putting out this challenge, despite replies, lets get down to the core of the problem.

Is this site, an amusement park site, available for sale at an appropriate price calculated by valuation professionals in the field at a market price for an amusement park?

This is the whole issue and a short, straight, answer would be appreciated.

Just incase you have missed the question Bob this is it .

[taffy]

I see Bob is back with all sorts of spurious facts but no answer to the perfectly respectable question above. It is straightforward enough. Isn't it?!?

[Nick]

I think most of you are confused as to the Status of the Buildings that the request has gone into for Demolishing them. These Buildings are not Listed and do not have the same protection as that of a Listed Building. They do have some protection in that permision is required to demolish them as they are within the curtlidge of a Listed Building.

These buildings are listed and have exactly the same protection as a listed building.

For a Grade I, II* or II building, the listing includes:

- the whole building, both interior and exterior;
- objects or structures fixed to the building;
- detached objects or structures such as outbuildings, walls and gates, within its curtilage if they have formed part of the land since before 1st July 1948. Such freestanding structures may occasionally be listed separately in their own right.

If the demolition of buildings within the curtilage of a listed building is proposed, then these buildings are treated as part of the building for the purpose of listed building control.

Sorry.

Nick

[Bob]

I think most of you are confused as to the Status of the Buildings that the request has gone into for Demolishing them. These Buildings are not Listed and do not have the same protection as that of a Listed Building. They do have some protection in that permision is required to demolish them as they are within the curtlidge of a Listed Building.

These buildings are listed and have exactly the same protection as a listed building.

For a Grade I, II* or II building, the listing includes:

- the whole building, both interior and exterior;
- objects or structures fixed to the building;
- detached objects or structures such as outbuildings, walls and gates, within its curtilage if they have formed part of the land since before 1st July 1948. Such freestanding structures may occasionally be listed separately in their own right.

If the demolition of buildings within the curtilage of a listed building is proposed, then these buildings are treated as part of the building for the purpose of listed building control.

Sorry.

Nick

Perhaps you ought to read up on recent case law. You may find it interesting. There are also some interesting aspects as to what is curtilage. It is not as clear cut as you attempt to describe. There are also some interesty aspects as to the history of the site and the area it originally covered that affect planning law and listed building status.