Listed Building Applications Submitted

[David Ellis]

Robert...you mean an amusement park there is open all year! Wow, shock horror...of course it would NEVER work at Margate (tongue firmly planted in cheek)!

I have emailed the Leader and the Portfolio Member for Planning today with my concerns over the shortfalls in the Officer's report.

It sounds like the Officer who wrote the report has been "informed" by Bob.

David.

[Bob]

Just got back from Southend. Enough said!

The Demographics are totally different in Margate to that of Southend. Soiuthend has a much lower age profile and a much higher Disposable income then Thanet. It is also with in the Catchment area of Millions of people, Margate is not. You will find all the major Theme Parks are located centrally to a large population area. This puts the South Coast at a major disadvantage in particlur tourism is still gfaling to coastal areas in general.

[Susan]

Bob we have had this spurious argument over and over again. You have again ignored the facts that have been posted on this site.

Tourists are people who travel to a destination, be it for a day or for longer.

You make Margate sound as though it is totally beyond civilisation. Purely on the day trip market it has all of greater London and beyond, plus everything between London and the coast and that is only for starters.

If there wasn't a potential market for an amusement park in Margate businessmen, who know the business, would not be interested in taking on Dreamland and operating it as an amusement park and you know full well they are.

[David Ellis]

Southend is also with in the Catchment area of Millions of people, Margate is not. You will find all the major Theme Parks are located centrally to a large population area.

Central London to Southend 40 miles...Central London to Margate 74 miles...I cannot see that 34 miles difference is any justification for your comments about a significant disadvantage for Margate.

David.

[porf]

The catchment area is certainly larger that "Bob" chooses to admit.

From South-East London my trip to Margate is around 75 minutes by car via a nice easy route.

This is a totally acceptable distance for a day trip, yet we also sometimes still stay for a weekend depending on what we're doing.

The reason fewer Londoners visit is because of the lack of investment in it's biggest attraction!

The lack of advertising (including the very strange lack of a website - a very cheap and effective global advert) over the last few years means many people outside of Thanet would not even know Dreamland was open, by contrast my work restaurant in the centre of the City of London has flyers for Southends Adventure Island.

[Susan]

Hotels in Margate have flyers for Adventure Island!!!!!!!!

The distance from London to Margate is not dissimilar to the large towns and cities in the north-west to Blackpool which is held up as the most successful seaside amusement park. As mentioned above many day trip and some make a weekend of it .... others even go for longer.

Some quite successful seaside amusement parks will envy the potential catchment of Dreamland.

[Bob]

Hotels in Margate have flyers for Adventure Island!!!!!!!!

The distance from London to Margate is not dissimilar to the large towns and cities in the north-west to Blackpool which is held up as the most successful seaside amusement park. As mentioned above many day trip and some make a weekend of it .... others even go for longer.

Some quite successful seaside amusement parks will envy the potential catchment of Dreamland.

Dreamlands pull was as an adjunct to a Seaside holiday resort. It never was and never will be a major tourist attraction. It is far to small and its location is poor. It is a large fairground. People will travel perhaps up to an hour to vist such an attraction. Dreamland would be compiting againgst the likes of Thorpe Park, Alton Towers etc and for people more then a an hour away from Margate its no contest. Dreamland major market was people holidaying in the town. A market that has disappeared. It also had a significant number of day vistors at weekend, this though was in the days before it had compition from the Major theme parks. No matter how you slice the cake Margates share of visitors to Dreamland will always be small. Every seaside town in the UK has seen its market shrink.

[David Ellis]

People will travel perhaps up to an hour to vist such an attraction.

Well I have travelled 3 hours each way to visit Dreamland on many occasions, on the basis that it contains one of only a handful of wooden coasters in the UK, in fact it is the oldest one; indeed one of only 9 coasters in the world with a brakeman...well worth the journey (and so say many others). It is Dreamland's Unique Selling Point.

The Scenic Railway is a great ride all the family can enjoy...put it in an environment where someone cares about the customer and it could do very nicely.

Dreamland would be compiting againgst the likes of Thorpe Park, Alton Towers etc and for people more then a an hour away from Margate its no contest.

Not true. Sure people will visit Alton, Thorpe etc, but they won't go there every time! Amusement park goers want variety, not the same rides every week. Dreamland could offer that variety.

The park can never be a Thorpe Park, or Alton Towers...but it doesn't have to be. Many people prefer the more traditional amusement parks over the big corporate chains anyway...it certainly has a place in the market!

David.

[Nick]

Hotels in Margate have flyers for Adventure Island!!!!!!!!

The distance from London to Margate is not dissimilar to the large towns and cities in the north-west to Blackpool which is held up as the most successful seaside amusement park. As mentioned above many day trip and some make a weekend of it .... others even go for longer.

Some quite successful seaside amusement parks will envy the potential catchment of Dreamland.

It never was and never will be a major tourist attraction.

Hmm. That is a comment that cannot be justified. Dealing with the "never was" first. Under Bembom Brothers, Dreamland had 2 million visitors a year and was the UK's second most visited pay-on-entry amusement/theme park. That is in the official Visit Britain annual tourist attractions survey for the 1980s (I have a copy). Even under Jimmy Godden, it managed almost 700,000 visitors, placing it in the top ten free entry amusement parks in the UK.

On a more local scale, it has (as far as I know) been the biggest tourist attraction in Thanet since the year dot.

Now the "never will be". Established theme park operators would like to acquire the park and invest millions. Southend's Adventure Island has already publicly committed £10m in new rides, attractions and infrastructure. The Inspector in his report (read it) stated that it is Margate's biggest attraction.

Dreamland was, is and (hopefully, depending on the vote on Thursday) will continue to be a MAJOR tourist attraction. That is a statement of fact, not opinion (unless in your world you have to be number one in the UK to be considered major).

(By the way. You say the site is too small. It is almost twice the size of Adventure Island, which attracts 1.5 milion visitors a year).

Nick

[Bob]

Hotels in Margate have flyers for Adventure Island!!!!!!!!

The distance from London to Margate is not dissimilar to the large towns and cities in the north-west to Blackpool which is held up as the most successful seaside amusement park. As mentioned above many day trip and some make a weekend of it .... others even go for longer.

Some quite successful seaside amusement parks will envy the potential catchment of Dreamland.

It never was and never will be a major tourist attraction.

Hmm. That is a comment that cannot be justified. Dealing with the "never was" first. Under Bembom Brothers, Dreamland had 2 million visitors a year and was the UK's second most visited pay-on-entry amusement/theme park. That is in the official Visit Britain annual tourist attractions survey for the 1980s (I have a copy). Even under Jimmy Godden, it managed almost 700,000 visitors, placing it in the top ten free entry amusement parks in the UK.

On a more local scale, it has (as far as I know) been the biggest tourist attraction in Thanet since the year dot.

Now the "never will be". Established theme park operators would like to acquire the park and invest millions. Southend's Adventure Island has already publicly committed £10m in new rides, attractions and infrastructure. The Inspector in his report (read it) stated that it is Margate's biggest attraction.

Dreamland was, is and (hopefully, depending on the vote on Thursday) will continue to be a MAJOR tourist attraction. That is a statement of fact, not opinion (unless in your world you have to be number one in the UK to be considered major).

(By the way. You say the site is too small. It is almost twice the size of Adventure Island, which attracts 1.5 milion visitors a year).

Nick

Under the current plans proposed for the site a figure far in excess of £10 million will be invested in the site. Dreamland though will not be a major attraction. The estimated number of visitors to the new Dreamland will be in the order of 500,000 per year.

Dreamland is certainly not the number one visitor attraction in Kent. It does not even make it to the top ten. Canterbury Cathedral alone gets over 1,000,000 visitors a year.

[Susan]

Bob you have replied with your information but not in response to what was said.

You tell us 10 million will be spent but not on what, that is the relevance. That amount on an amusement park is rather different to that amount on other developments. So please dont think us stupid enough to consider yours must be better because it costs more.

Dreamland was, in fairly recent times when it was not being maintained at it's previous high standard, in the top ten free amusement parks in the country, not overly long ago it was the top attraction in Kent with 2 million visitors.

You spent yesterday telling us there was no catchment now you are telling us Canterbury can attract 1,000,000, it's only up the road. Before you respond saying Cathedral people dont go to amusement parks forget it many do and for everyone that doesn't I'd like to bet there is an amusement park person who wouldn't go to a Cathedral. Additionally families are unlikely to visit Canterbury Cathedral very often but they certainly will pay repeat visits to amusement parks.

[Neil]

OK, I haven't posted on the site for ages (although I have been continuing to write letter/emails etc!) so Caution-Marathon Post!!!

Firstly Bob I think although at the moment a lot of people are taking second holidays in places such as Spain this certainly isn't sustainable and must be dicouraged. Did you know that flying to America and back is as damaging to the environment as using a car for a year? The logic behind this is quite technical but don't you think we should be encouraging peole to take more holidays in the UK?

Secondly let's look beyond Dreamland to Margate's other tourist assets. It's got a wonderful beach and although having donkey rides etc prevent it getting all the availiable awards it really is a wonderful natural asset. Then there's the shell grotto and Tuner gallery for those wanting to inject culture into their stay and for those who want to enjoy the traditional sea side holiday gisft shops, amusement aracades, fish and chip shops etc. Bob, we are not saying that Dreamland should be Maragate's only tourist attraction but the centrepiece of their tourism

Secondly it shouldn't be compared to Thorpe Park and Alton Towers. For a start extending my above point people can visit some of Margate's other attractions and finish with a few rides making it a different kind of day out. Secondly Thorpe Park is about "£28" for a day out wheras Dreamland would almost certainly be more affordable (although clearly at this stage we can not venture to be more specific). It would also have other advantages (eg shorter queues etc). Therefore even if they can't spend more than a couple of million pounds on any one ride it would still have an attraction and pull these other parks you have named cannot

In terms of the buildings being run down do you know Bob how much effort and money it would take to restore them? Just because paint is peeling doesn't mean the situation is irredeemable. Also if what you say is true and the Council have decided to remove Dreamland as an amusement park don't you think this makes the campaign all the more important?

Finally Bob you have so far brushed aside the inspectors finding as if he was some kind of demented Mr Bean. As someone who should be unbiased I find his conclusion very plausible.

[cliffc]

[quote="Susan"]Hotels in Margate have flyers for Adventure Island!!!!!!!!

Its a crying shame that the hotles in Margate have to promote Adventure Island as its own town does not have an amusment park of its own to promote, more so when the owner of the rival park wants to build something simular in Margate.

The distance from London to Margate is not dissimilar to the large towns and cities in the north-west to Blackpool which is held up as the most successful seaside amusement park. As mentioned above many day trip and some make a weekend of it .... others even go for longer.

I live on the north east cost and am approx 40 Miles from Scarbrough 20 Miles from Whitby and some 155 ish miles from Blackpool, I visit the local resorts many times over the year, but I will also travel to Blackpool at least 4 times a year for the day its only a 2 hour drive there are many people from our area that will travel those distances for a day out. So therefore its folly to say that Margates catchement area is to small. The reason People choose not to come to Margate can be put down to the lack of attractions. This is a situation that can be put right, its also silly to say that Margate's Season cannot be extended, Scarbrough which i would say was about the same size as Margate is open more or less all year round thay have a large indoor amusement center offering the usual array of video and fruit machines along with some indoor rides both for adults and children, as well as 10pin bowling and a family bar and the small amusement park at the end of the prom opens most weekends throught the year and during school hoildays.

CLiff C

[Neil]

Going back to the original topic of this thread, I've recieved my response to my objection to the applications to demolish the buildings. It says that my objections to the following buildings:
Top Sub-Station
Belgrave House
A former restraunt (arcade?)

Does anyone know whether that means they have forgotten to log my other two objections. It seems to be a stock letter so they didn't give any comment to the questions and points I raised in my letter which is a shame. I've writtenon several occassions and recieved a real mixed bag of replies.

[Tony P]

Hi Neil,

I posted my objections via the website route.

I received 5 identicle letters, Thank you - we will keep you informed of progress.

The titles were; Building's - 7 Belgrave House, 8 Former Restaurant, 9 Top Sub station, 10 The bungalow & 11 Park Amusements. (application numbers L/TH/05/1593, 94, 95, 96, 97.

Looks to me that your letter has not been considered for all of the applications.