Redevelopment- a Foregone Conclusion?

[Nick]

Dreamland cannot compete in that market. Its only route to survive is to downsize, reduce the cost base and diversify away from begining just a seaside amusement park. So Dreamland will end up smaller and more compact but with more rides. The focus will not be on the expensive high thrill type rides but will be aimed at the under 10 market with lots of smaller childrens rides and play areas etc

The market research indicates that Dreamland can be succesfull on a smaller scale and targeted at the under 10 market. It will not be going for the big thrill rides which it could not compete with. There will still be the Scenic railway for those that like a bit more excitment. Otherwise one will have to go to the likes of Thorpe Park or Chessington.

Bob, How do you see your 'vision' for a downsized park, with more rides, succeeding when the only arrangement available is a 3 year lease that can be broken on one month's notice? How can that arrangement deliver the quality that we are all looking for? That does not sound to me like an arrangement that will succeed.

Nick

[Dave H.]

Hi all,I'll put my hands up and admit that I've not been to Margate for about 7 years,more due to being busy running my own business than for any other reason.All I know is,as a Seafront Trader,my business couldn't run for 52 weeks of the year,being close to Brighton probably doesn't help that.Once the kids go back to school at the end of the summer holiday,all I have is about 4-5 weekends,where I'll take anything,no fortunes I have to admit.I was hoping to get some good ideas for 52 week opening that would help me as well The other point that has been made about Margate,dont forget I've not seen it first hand,is that it sounds like the front is in a bit of a state,is there any plans to tidy that up and reopen the closed down premises to make the whole place more attractive? Sorry to sound as if I'm siding with Bob,but running a Rides business,I can see where he's coming from,I'm sure at the end of the day,we'd all like our businesses to be making a good profit,not always within our control though.

Dave.

[Nick]

What I'd like ask members of the forum,especially those who dont work in the Leisure industry is,what do YOU think would make Dreamland viable as an attraction again? Give your answers serious consideration and try to think of attractions that can be open 52 weeks of the year.I'll await your replies.All the best,Dave.

Nobody is saying that running a large amusement park is an easy business. As Philip Miller always says to me, it is an extremely difficult business, with a large capital investment required, maintenance, large numbers of staff and insurance, not to mention the claim culture that we are now in. But if you have a genuine passion for what you do, and are willing to put the effort in over many years (and I do mean many years - Adventure Island was developed in about 1997, so it has been so far a nine year project), a seaside amusement park can be a very lucrative business. I have seen the accounts of many seaside amusement parks, and I can assure you that the rewards are worth the effort.

What would make Dreamland a viable attraction again?

What marks out the successful seaside parks from those that are declining is, in my view, primarily down to two things: location and quality. If you are not in a good location, then you will find it more difficult. All the major seaside resorts that have amusement parks (with the exception of Margate) are doing well. Blackpool, Southport, Brighton, Clacton, Southend, Great Yarmouth, Skegness, Scarborough, Bridlington, etc. Some of these are open for 52 weeks of the year (or almost 52 weeks of the year).

But even being in a good location is not enough if the park is not well run. Dreamland has not been well run for years. The park has had a poor appearance, outdated infrastructure, mainly travelling rides, poor customer service, little promotion and no website. My theory about quality is proven by the fact that there are a number of very successful seaside amusement parks that are not in major resorts. I am thinking of parks like Brean Leisure Park (Brean Sands, Somerset), Fort Fun (Eastbourne), Clarence Pier (Southsea) and the park you mentioned, Funland at Hayling Island.

Hayling Island is a perfect example of how to run a successful amusement park. It is a family-owned park that is run with enthusiasm and passion. It is a clean and attractive place. It has a fantastic range of rides for all ages, and new rides are introduced all the time, some of which almost compete with the major theme parks. The park is well promoted and the owners are always thinking of new and innovative promotions to keep the park in the public eye. Funland is proof if ever it was needed that seaside amusement parks can succeed and prosper. That is why Philip Miller is 100% convinced that he can make Dreamland work.

As somebody who works within the tourism industry on a national basis, I am also convinced that Dreamland can succeed and prosper. Like Sarah, I would not be doing this if I didn't believe that our Campaign had realistic objectives. If somebody like Philip could take control of Dreamland, it would undoubtedly have those two key ingredients: location and quality. Sadly, at the moment, Dreamland is not even being given a chance.

Nick

[Dave H.]

Totally agree with everything you say there Nick,very interesting and valid points made.The point that I've been trying to get across,is that whilst we would all like to see Dreamland as successful as it was,its not an easy thing to do as you also state,things have moved on,expenses are high and it would now have to be a totally different Park to what it was.The other interesting thing about the Parks you mention,is that they are all run by families who love doing what they're doing and are very hands on,I would assume that as Dreamland was just one of J.G'S business interests,the main day to day running would have been left to other people?

Dave.

[porf]

Dave H :

The run down state of Margate is really a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

Dreamland has always been the major tourist draw to Margate. I believe the lack of investment in Dreamland over the last 8 or so years has made it less attractive to tourists and caused a knock on decline in visitor numbers to Margate.

With less visitors coming to Margate other businesses in town (local shops/cafes/restaurants/pubs etc.) have hit harder times. This in turn has led to many empty units and an air of scruffiness in some parts of town.

If the council backed the Government Inspectors report then I feel that these businesses would be more confident that the resort would return to prosperity in the future and start investing in their businesses as well as bringing new businesses to the town.

Some parts of town have definately improved over the last few years (e.g. the "Old Town" area and parts of the sea front near the harbour) so it's certainly not all doom and gloom! Those willing to run a business need to be confident that the area will stay as a beach resort attracting people from a wide area and not become a shopping centre by the sea.

[Bob]

Dave H :

The run down state of Margate is really a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

Dreamland has always been the major tourist draw to Margate. I believe the lack of investment in Dreamland over the last 8 or so years has made it less attractive to tourists and caused a knock on decline in visitor numbers to Margate.

With less visitors coming to Margate other businesses in town (local shops/cafes/restaurants/pubs etc.) have hit harder times. This in turn has led to many empty units and an air of scruffiness in some parts of town.

If the council backed the Government Inspectors report then I feel that these businesses would be more confident that the resort would return to prosperity in the future and start investing in their businesses as well as bringing new businesses to the town.

Some parts of town have definately improved over the last few years (e.g. the "Old Town" area and parts of the sea front near the harbour) so it's certainly not all doom and gloom! Those willing to run a business need to be confident that the area will stay as a beach resort attracting people from a wide area and not become a shopping centre by the sea.

Seaside resorts no longer attract large number of people. The market has been decling for over 40 years and continues to do so. Between 1984 and 2004 the number of visitors to seaside resorts in the UK dropped by over 40% a very large number. The bulk of visitors to seaside resorts are in the over 55 age group normally not significant users of amusement parks
Margate is not a very attractive resort for visitors. It does not really compete against a resort such as Clacton. Which is reasonably smart and clean and still offers reasonable entertainment and facilities for visitors. It also lays on a number of shows etc during the year as well as a Carnival. One of Clactons key strengths is the wealth of good static caravan parks. This is one of the few areas where the market is growing. Clacton is also close to some of the UK's most scenic countriside as well as the old roman town of Colchester

Margate at present offers little to nothing to attract tourists its deficient in almost all areas. It has no pier. No gardens of any merit. No entertainment, No facilities.

[David Ellis]

Between 1984 and 2004 the number of visitors to seaside resorts in the UK dropped by over 40% a very large number

I cannot comment on the accuracy of that statistic, but I don't think the statistics for seaside amusement parks have shown the same drop. Numbers may be down but only marginally, otherwise how are they reporting such good surpluses?

The bulk of visitors to seaside resorts are in the over 55 age group normally not significant users of amusement parks

You are obviously generalising...how do you think places like Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Adventure Island survive?

Margate is not a very attractive resort for visitors. It does not really compete against a resort such as Clacton. Which is reasonably smart and clean and still offers reasonable entertainment and facilities for visitors. It also lays on a number of shows etc during the year as well as a Carnival. One of Clactons key strengths is the wealth of good static caravan parks. This is one of the few areas where the market is growing. Clacton is also close to some of the UK's most scenic countriside as well as the old roman town of Colchester

I don't want to be cruel to anyone from deepest Essex, but I don't consider the sights around Clacton to be anything significantly prettier than Kent? I don't think there are huge visitor numbers to Colchester, because of its standing as Britain's oldest Town. Is this really the reason why Dreamland cannot be successful?

Margate at present offers little to nothing to attract tourists its deficient in almost all areas. It has no pier. No gardens of any merit. No entertainment, No facilities.

...and obviously no optimism!

If park managers across the country had that level of optimism about their local area what a mess we would all be in!

Rather than being the victim of a depressed area, a rejuvenated Dreamland could be the source of the turnaround!

David.

[Dave H.]

Looking at the over 55's statistic,from what I know of my own operation,this is a very realistic figure during School Term time,obviously not weekends and School Holidays.I now only open weekends and holidays because there's not the pre school kids about to make it worthwhile opening in term time.

[Bob]

Between 1984 and 2004 the number of visitors to seaside resorts in the UK dropped by over 40% a very large number

I cannot comment on the accuracy of that statistic, but I don't think the statistics for seaside amusement parks have shown the same drop. Numbers may be down but only marginally, otherwise how are they reporting such good surpluses?

The bulk of visitors to seaside resorts are in the over 55 age group normally not significant users of amusement parks

You are obviously generalising...how do you think places like Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Adventure Island survive?

Margate is not a very attractive resort for visitors. It does not really compete against a resort such as Clacton. Which is reasonably smart and clean and still offers reasonable entertainment and facilities for visitors. It also lays on a number of shows etc during the year as well as a Carnival. One of Clactons key strengths is the wealth of good static caravan parks. This is one of the few areas where the market is growing. Clacton is also close to some of the UK's most scenic countriside as well as the old roman town of Colchester

I don't want to be cruel to anyone from deepest Essex, but I don't consider the sights around Clacton to be anything significantly prettier than Kent? I don't think there are huge visitor numbers to Colchester, because of its standing as Britain's oldest Town. Is this really the reason why Dreamland cannot be successful?

Margate at present offers little to nothing to attract tourists its deficient in almost all areas. It has no pier. No gardens of any merit. No entertainment, No facilities.

...and obviously no optimism!

If park managers across the country had that level of optimism about their local area what a mess we would all be in!

Rather than being the victim of a depressed area, a rejuvenated Dreamland could be the source of the turnaround!

David.

I am not saying be defeatest but you have to recognise that Margate does not have much to offer at present. It is mainly Theme Parks that are doing resonable well. They are all far far larger then Dreamland and have better locations. In my view Dreamland has no chance of competing in that market. Blackpool is surviving but have to contract and diversify it has to some extent targeted the Gay market as well as Stag & Hen nights. This has though damaged some of its tradditional market. Thorpe Park has Exhibitions & Corporate days it also as a Hotel and good Dining facilities

You have to recognise the Market has shrunk dramatically & the age profile has changed. Seaside resports are no longer attracting the young familly market with children it is now predominatly attracting retired couples. There is some growth in the family market with static caravans but Margate has few sizable Caravan parks.

Given the size of the Margate for an Amusement Park and the shortness of the season running Dreamland along its 1970's approach would be doomed to disaster. It would just not attract the numbers needed. Most seaside resorts struggle to survive. Many just open June to August but even this is difficult and requires low costs seasonal sites.

Yes some Amusement parks are surviving but not many its a hand to mouth existance and most operators have either diversified or have a second Winter job.

[cliffc]

Hi

I agree with all of Nicks comments all of the resorts he lists have thriving amusement parks with Scarbr'o being the smallest but its still a very busy park and open most weekends through the year, and does a good trade.

I will agree that during the week during term time even resorts like Blackpool are not as busy as thay are at weekends and during the school holidays, but the attractions adjust there opening hours and other factors to compensate for this, but theae resorts are by no means desreted either.

When we talk about Dreamland extending hours I dont think any one is expecting it to open 365 days a year, but with a well thought out plan of opening and good publicity with the improvements that will be done the part will be a success.

Due to the ongoing neglet of the site this wil not happen overnight, even if a new operator was sold the site tomorrow it would take 2 may be 3 years for them to get the park up to the standard that every one wants to see, but even in quick time someone with commitment would be able to make enough improvements to give the site a good opening season under new management.

If Margate is to survive as a whole then it needs dreamland to allow it to survive otherwise there will be more empty shops, less visitors ect, lets hope the council sees this bigger picture when it makes its decision.

Cliff C

[Vince, Charlie and Sam]

So what exactly do you have in mind for the site, Bob? How do you see the future for Dreamland? What, to your mind, is the way forward?

[porf]

Thorpe Park has Exhibitions & Corporate days it also as a Hotel and good Dining facilities

"Bob" : Is there a hotel at Thorpe Park? I've never noticed one. Just wondering how accurate some of your "research" and "knowledge" is.

Then again maybe you've not been to Thorpe Park for a long time, same as you claimed not to have been to Margate for years

30 Nov 2003 Bob wrote : I have not been to Margate for a few years

[Bob]

So what exactly do you have in mind for the site, Bob? How do you see the future for Dreamland? What, to your mind, is the way forward?

The way forward has to be a scaled back operation there are just not the visitor numbers to support the whole site . Outside of School holidays and Weekends there are next to no visitors. The only way that Dreamland can operate is if the Income exceeds the Costs. That is the real constraint.
Dreamland is not large enough nor could it afford the mega rides that the Theme parks can over this can cost up to £5,000,000. The operating costs are also high. So basically Dreamland needs to target the 8 to 13 years old market. Rides suitable for this market are much cheaper and have lower operating costs and there is a larger market in that age group

[RowBot]

I wasn't born in kent (I was born in Hastings and moved down here with my family when I was 2). Unfortunatly I have missed the park when it was at it's best but Dreamland still dragged people from miles around even when it was starting to decay. I must of been about 10 years old when all my family from Hastings came down and we all went to Dreamland for the day and it was amazing and no matter what anyone says I know people will come if their's something to go their for!

[Sarah]

Seaside resorts no longer attract large number of people. The market has been decling for over 40 years and continues to do so. Between 1984 and 2004 the number of visitors to seaside resorts in the UK dropped by over 40% a very large number. The bulk of visitors to seaside resorts are in the over 55 age group normally not significant users of amusement parks
Margate is not a very attractive resort for visitors. It does not really compete against a resort such as Clacton. Which is reasonably smart and clean and still offers reasonable entertainment and facilities for visitors. It also lays on a number of shows etc during the year as well as a Carnival. One of Clactons key strengths is the wealth of good static caravan parks. This is one of the few areas where the market is growing. Clacton is also close to some of the UK's most scenic countriside as well as the old roman town of Colchester

RUBBISH!!

Margate can't compete with Clacton. No, of course not. We have no shows. Tell that to the people at the Winter Gardens and the Theatre Royal. We have no Carnival. Tell that to Mick T, who organises ours every year. We have no good static caravan parks in the area. Tell that to Quex Park, Two Chimneys, Manston and the Foxhunter. We're not close to any scenic countryside. No, we just sit on the longest, most important and very beautiful stretch of chalk cliffs in the country. And we're not close to the old Roman town of Colchester. So it's a good job we're half an hour away from Canterbury.

Does this man's ignorance know no bounds? I'm beginning to think he's too stupid for even Godden to employ.

Sarah